Heroes of Healthcare
Heroes of Healthcare

Episode · 1 week ago

Evidence For Treating Illnesses with Holistic Healthcare

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There is a longstanding cultural belief that all illnesses can be healed by a surgery or drug prescribed by a doctor. While advances in healthcare are saving lives, there are holistic healthcare practices backed by evidence that can be used to treat illnesses.

In today’s episode, we speak to Dr. Joanne Wu MD MBA, a multi-entrepreneur, President and Principal of Fit2bwell, who provides board advisory and fractional Chief Medical and Health Officer services to digital startups and other companies. 

She joins us to discuss what goes into funding research for medicine and why we need more clinical staff at the executive level of healthcare organizations.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The growing curiosity towards holistic healthcare
  • Stakeholders who can change healthcare
  • Why people are leaving medicine   

To hear this interview and more like it, subscribe to Heroes of Healthcare on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Two slowly start to change and pivot away from this on demand type of service. We just need to counsel all the stakeholders and what the value is if we're able to take the time and ask the right question. You're listening to heroes of healthcare, the podcast that highlights bold, selfless professionals in the healthcare industry focused on transforming lives in their communities. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the heroes of healthcare podcast. I'm your host, Ted Wayne Oh the past few episodes we've been discussing what we call whole health, not just treating patients specific symptoms, but treating the whole individual mind, body and spirit. Dr Elliott discussed with us how the Mary Center in Washington D C is referring to their patients as participants and they join with them to cure the whole person. The R Kelman discussed microbiome medicine and how our Gut impacts so much of our physical and mental well being, and today we continue on this topic as we're joined by Dr Joanne Wu. Dr Joanne Wu is an integrative medicine and holistic rehabilitation doctor who graduated from the Rochester School of Medicine and specializes in sustainable personal and corporate wellness. With over twenty two licenses and certifications from Cornell and Harvard, Dr Wu is an experienced senior leader with a lens towards strategic and innovative technology to advance the future of health wellness. Passionate about mindful health through integrated practices. Dr Who donates her time with organizations focused on health equity, technology and students learning the foundation of wellness to foster health throughout their lives. It's our pleasure to welcome Dr Woo to the show. Welcome to the heroes of healthcare podcast, Dr Woo. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Tad, for the invitation. Yep Um, so kind of following in this theme of episodes we've had over the last few weeks. It's about we're gonna talk today a little bit about whole health and holistic and uh, physician and clinical burnout and mental health and a whole bunch of topics. So we're excited to get into that UH in today's episode. But I'd love to start off, if you don't mind, and just tell everybody how you got into medicine, why this has become your life's work and your passion and just let's get to know Dr Woo a little better. I uh fought the idea of being a physician for a long time, actually when I was younger. I was born to two very ambitious parents who had really wanted me to become a doctor. I think like most children, they tend to push back a little bit what parents tell you to do. But I realized shortly that my skill set fell into that arena and I stopped fighting and I decided to explore and dive deeper. So I went towards them as as opposed to away from them. My parents and I were both immigrants from Hong Kong and my parents had to find new careers when they had immigrated, and both of them chose nursing. My mother was a nursing director for a nursing home and then also work pediatric nursing for her career Um. So I volunteered at her facilities to really see what that experience would be like with the patients Um. My father was a nurse practitioner. After he went back for more training and settled in occupational medicine and treating injured workers and working on preventing injuries and workers and I really love their compassion and their kindness to the patients and I married that with my talents in science and mathematics and it really matched my personality as well of having a growth mindset, because medicines always changed and evolving and I felt a sense...

...of adventure with every single patient because they were different. They're just different people. Everybody's needs are a little bit different and and I love in your approach it's not about just addressing the actual symptom or trying to diagnose the symptom. You look more whole person at the thing and that's as in the introduction we said, we kind of kicked this off with Um uh. This has been kind of the theme we've talked about the last few weeks. Um, so let's talk a little bit about, if you don't mind sharing a little bit about your holistic approach in terms of what have you learned over the years and the places in which you've practiced that has made your approach today, Um, what it is, and I'm sure what you started with right out of medical school and after residency and what it is today has changed a lot, and and so share with us a little bit of how that's changed and and and how you find it to be effective. I was raised with a health model that was influenced by my culture, the Chinese culture, where I had a lot of food as medicine. There were all these non traditional herbs that I was asked to take by my parents when I was ill. I was always fascinated by acupuncture and energy healing of the eastern arts that's seen traditional Chinese medicine doctors. So when I went to medical school I was excited to learn more about the traditional approach, right the allopathic approach. That's what we would say in clinical medicine, but I missed that other side. I knew that there was that Yin and Yang balance that was craving, and so I was very fortunate to be around a community where I had mentors and people I could look up to and I did training on my own at the same time as I was going to middle school. I did a lot of training and mindfulness based stress reduction and meditation and Yoga Therapy, all different types of exercises medicine. And then during my residency I learned about generative and holistic medicines some more and dove into things like reiky and understanding polarity, understanding even things like art therapy and diving deep into cognitive behavioral therapy, all these different ways to really heal a pathology. Um then during out in practice, I realized that we were not treating as much the root cause of disease. So I discovered more about functional medicine and how I want to understand, you know, antecedents before disease and how the disease can evolve and how can we really get to the bottom of things so that we stopped just comforting and palliating we can really stop diseases at the core. You you mentioned as Reiky. Tell us what is. What is reiky? It's R A K I, correct, R E I ki. Yeah, R E I K I. So recky U is a form of energy healing at the standpoint. It can be through touch contact, it can be through distance and it's just a way for the practitioner to influence the energy flow in an individual. UH, similar to how in traditional Chinese medicine we look at acupuncture and we look talk about the word cheat, really trying to influence energy points with needles, reiky kind of influences the energy points through a different connection. So we as humans carry energetic charges. Um, you might not be able to see it, but there's vibrations that we give off and these portals called Chakras, these energy portals that exist in our core, and the idea is to release these energy fluxes that could be stuck in us so that we can try to perform better. It's similar to how I...

...tell people about chiropractic. That's an approach of body work, right, but it also takes into account some physiology and by adjusting uh small points of restriction, the whole entire chain of the muscles and the bones and ligaments, everything can move if more efficiently. It's not big manipulations that to these small changes that can just make the whole system work better. Yeah, small adjustments. Yeah, you know, I I wonder and I think I shared with you, but I'll just I'll go through it again. How my interaction with holistic healing and the energy and raky was that I had um all of a sudden gotten very major joint inflammation, shoulders, knees, hips, to the point where I really had a lot of trouble moving and I went to a lot of medicine. Ended up at a rheumatologist and the rheumatologists tried all sorts of anti inflammatories and all sorts of things on me. Nothing seemed to work and they were going to move me to a biologic called embrold. Well, we hear, you see, Phil Mickelson promoting at the Golfer on TV and I I think the number was, I won't even say, I think it some astronomical number to be on this medication. And somebody mentioned to me, why don't you try to go to a holistic place, and I said, at this point, what you know? They said, it's not covered by by insurance. But and we can talk about that too. But and I said, okay, I'm you know, I was in such discomfort I said why not try anything? And I went in there and very honestly, I felt I was a little taken aback because it was a little, uh, feel of Voodoo or, you know, uh kind of different in the in the tests that they were running on me. And it's reading my my my energy, reading vibrations, all of that sort of stuff. I did and I said, okay, well, I'm here and I'm in and I'm going for it. And the computer prints out the results and the the the person who was reading it said, it looks like you have rocky mountain spotted fever, which is part of Um uh Spira keet virus, like a lime or something like that, and treated me with colloidal silver and some enzymes and things like that and within about a month or two I was fully cured and I was a better and have not had a reoccurrence of it or anything like that. So I believe right. Okay, you know I I went in skeptical, but I believe. Um. So talk about that a little bit. Why do we, why do we here in the US, have such a resistance to it? Why do naively like myself say, Oh, this is Voodoo medicine? I joke, I said they were gonna ask me to smoke the chicken bone or something like that, and you know, they never made me. You that. But you know, why are we so close minded about it? Maybe if that's the right way, and why won't traditional insurance cover that sort of medicine if it's real, it's proven and it's been around for a very long time. So many layers to those questions are in front. So I'm going to try to dive in where I can and then spin around a little bit. I U. I think there's actually a lot of openness in learning and understanding more of these. I was a more non traditional ways of healing now more so than than ever. So the curiosity is great. I think there's a movement of people saying there has to be something else, because it can't be just to pill a shot of surgery. There has to be some of the way. Um, but to provide evidence, we call it research. A lot of times in our world it requires time and money...

...on top of curiosity. And so unfortunately, even though Ni age has a whole sector on integrative medicine and non traditional ways of healing, its budget is quite small compared to other types of research and the private entities, unfortunately the Capitalistic Society that we live in, don't have a lot of incentive to dive into that market. So there's not a lot of research than in our world. In medicine we call it evidence based medicine. We have to tell the patients that there is not enough evidence to prove this or that, but we can say anecdotal, we can say case studies, we can see say trends, we can stay limited studies where they have smaller pools of patients that they they have looked at Um. But yeah, the bulk of search is really more in the traditional approaches and I think to carry that further. In my opinion, um, until we can really push more investment towards the research, we won't get a lot of buy in from the payers. And these players can be private payers, commercial players, or they could be even our federal payers. Now there's a lot of UH folks, you know, studying in this area and really saying, well, I don't understand. You know, the cost to try acupuncture for ten sessions. It's probably no more than about thousands to two thousand dollars. That could be the cost of a week of drugs sometimes for people. So why can't we allow more choice in this matter? Right? So I think there are there is this movement and there is this push. Lastly, I think any change is going to be, unfortunately, micro changes that we're going to have to experience in the culture shift. Um, very I would have to say, majority of the patients, if you talk to them about even lifestyle medicine changes, right, just talking to them about how they cope with their stress, how much sleep do they get and you know how much movement they get and if the prescription, quote unquote, at the end of the day, is counseling them on how to live better. There there's a subset of folks that just don't feel that that's a prescription. Well, what that? That shouldn't be coming from a doctor. That's not, quote quote, high value. I come to you as a doctor. Isn't there something else? So I think we're fighting a long skin and cultural belief that again, the a pill of surgery, a drug, is going to be it. Now there are going to be cases at the standpoint where that we're gonna need to have that right. But there's a good amount of medicine we know can be so therapeutically natural and and and not. And not to point fingers, but let's call it as we see it. But Um, I mean, has this been driven by the pharmaceutical industry? Because you know, in a sense that let's you know, do we? Does the pharmaceutical industry give us a false sense of I've got the cure right, the TV ads, that magazine ads, whatever it is, it's clearly the lobbying. It's clearly working where, Um, it's not being recognized by the payer, as you say, the holistic medicine, and you're right. I mean people I know. I know friends, and sometimes I think their prescription happy. They just kind of go to the doctor because they want that prescription. They want something and I think in today's society we have no patience. So if it's not going to fix me tomorrow, then I'm I want to pursue something, I want to pursue something else. I think you've touched...

...on that. Culture piece, though, is talking a little bit about it is is that there's this perception that there's a quicker way. There must be an easier way, or there must be a more scientific way or, you know, it's two. Why? Why isn't there technology and science that has kept up with what we crave as as as a way to to heal? Um I think it is going to take time. I think, going back to you a direct question about is this driven by other industries, farm, medical devices, even politics, right, polcal movements? My opinion only yes. I think that there there has to be influenced because these are big entities with, you know, perhaps conflicting interests. Right, with time and right deep pockets too. Yes, and I'm not pointing fingers. Isn't there wrong? We're right, or so for but I think that's why I said the complex situation with multiple stakeholders in this and my passion always, Um, is how can we empower each individual to make the best choice for them, not just for their physical chemistry right, or the genetic makeup, it's really for what they believe their approach of care is meant to be. And we need to counsel also patients that nothing in life is really free. So even if their payer could cover this amount, chances are probably going to pay for it in other ways, like premiums and other things down the line. You know, there's always a trickle down effect. Um. That's our medicine has been a cause of burnout, I think, for a lot of clinicians with time, because, Um, the cycle just continues. You know, if we don't think about these costs and values and how there's other ways to hell, we might be paying for a down the line with more bureaucracy and tougher regulations around authorizations before we treat. And that's usually what causes a lot of people to leave medicine, is that there's the more hoops and boundaries because we just don't have enough, quot unquote, money to pay for at all the bureaucracy, the bureaucracy piece of it. So yeah, because you know what I was thinking about while you were just explaining. That was what you explained. In my mind's eye, requires the clinician, not just a physician, but nurse practitioner or whoever is trying to help this, to invest time. And yet we all hear how medicine has become. You get that eight and a half minute to get the patient and go see them run through it quick, boom out. And what you're talking about is much more of an investment, right, which is understanding what's going on in the person's life. You know what might be causing that problem that they come in with. And because speed and time is money, we don't take the time to understand the patient in a in a in an in depth way that allows us to really treat the whole person. Um, because we're we're under that clock, and that's what I think you also say, is that's what's leading towards the burnout. Yes, there is UM. There is nothing like time for some uh disease management or ways for us to hear. We we need to take the time to observe, to see how each individual responds. Now, of course, going back to science, right, if you have a broken bone from you know, you're bleeding lots of blood. There is no time to waste, right, like you know, if it's unstable, your surgeons are gonna do what's necessary to stabilized up blood loss and so forth and preserved function. They're all doing the right things. Okay, but if we're talking about, let's say, at a knee that's, you know, going to be arthritic to a...

...point where it's going to be bone on bone, but the person is significantly overweight and then mobilized and hasn't started on some really important preventative measures, should we actually replace that me or should we think about other ways to reduce burden of disease in a more natural way so that even if they do end up needing a need replacement, there appliance is going to last. Right. So all this does take time to understand the patient and also build that trust with the patient that, at the end of the day, you're really trying to understand them and help them and help them help themselves. Um, the accountability piece is really invaluable. Yeah, you know and it's hard to to you know, everybody is different and everybody approaches things, different doctors as well. But you know, the plaint I here and over the last few years I've talked on the show about, you know, going through things with my father Um in terms of his last his last years and things like that, and frustration with the medical system and is are the doctors just being pushed into that Um? You know, I get I'm not articulating this very well. I Apologize. I think what I'm trying to say is my finding was you'd come into the doctor's office, they would look at you really quick, they'd either write a script or they would refer you somewhere else and they were onto the next one. And the frustration I had at the time with my father was nobody's investing my time. They don't know whether they don't know if he'll ever return again. They don't know, but there's no follow up. It just becomes this you feel like you're in the mill. And maybe I'm just repeating the same question, asking the same question again, but what what it systemically is causing that? Is it that same thing? It's the big influences, that's the money I'm you know, I'm not trying to put put words in your mouth, but I'm also I also don't want to be repeating myself in our conversation. No, I don't think you are. Actually I think you're asking some clarifying questions to see. You think it's asking for clarity. I think that's great. I think there are so many the multiple stakeholders and there's multiple perspectives. Um, speaking as a provider, a physician Um, a lot of it has come down to traditional healthcare systems had not been reimbursed well for the visits that were being provided for the various types of clinicians. So, from a healthcare delivery system operational standpoint, margins right. They take a look at all that and it's it's deemed a follow up should be x amount of minutes maximum on average, or consultation should be x amount of minutes on average maximum, and they train the physicians and the clinicians to think in those models and if they fall outside those parameters, not only could they run risk being late for their schedule but not making their productivity standards. Um. And then from a patient standpoint, we've also had patients coming in and some of them don't want to talk, to be quite frank, they literally just say, why can't you just give me that prescriptions so I can leave and I can get back to my life. Right. So, even if, even if you do have a clinician in front of them that has a time or wants to take the time and believe in that model too. So there's just multiple layers. That's why too slowly start to change and pivot away from this on demand type of service. We just need to counsel all the stakeholders and what the value is if we're able to take the time and ask the right...

...questions and know the needs of the individuals in front of us. So explain that a little bit more when you say I think it's when you say all the stakeholders, like who are you referring to? Who? Who? All has to be educated, because I heard what you said that sometimes just because I wanted a doctor who's going to sit there and listen to me and consult with me and, you know, and be heard, as we said earlier. Right, uh, you know. So, as you said, some patients are in there and saying my elbow hurts, give me a prescription and I'm out of here. Yeah, give me a prescription or give me a shot. That's what we hear a lot. Um. So the stakeholders. Obviously the patient, all right, that's the number one patient centered care. That the one that's been providing some concerns that want they want to discuss to the clinician about. oftentimes they'll also bring their family members that to help assist in telling that story. And there's that stakeholder and sometimes they're they're different, right stories and different values or requests and how to maneuver that. There's a clinicians themselves and what they have to handle, the support staff at the front, at the back, you know, to help ruin the patients. They have other tasks that they have to handle. So a lot of times it exactly well from the top to the end. And then also the hospitals and the clinics that actually ultimately own the practice and own the buildings and they're the ones that do the building. Then the players themselves. So those are all the different stakeholders and they all have similar goals, but they also can have, at different points, conflicting goals. Um. I mean, I'll tell you an example. Like I have never been shy about shipping in. Like you know, I ran a pretty busy clinic for over twelve years in which I practiced clinical medicine and an outpatient clinic. There'll be times where my nurse is busy they can't check the patient in. I'll do the final science. I'll even wheeld a wheelchair out. You know, I'll make the follow up calls, obviously to the family, even though you know I should sup what staff to help them, and even times where I've brought the patients in from the waiting room because my secretaries were far behind and they couldn't check them in. So I think a good amount of my clinician colleagues, do you try to step up to do these quote unquote, non clinician types of tasks to keep the train moving to make sure we are taking care of the patients the best we can. But the model is right now, I would have to say, many people are calling it broken, because everybody has a different picture of how medicine should be delivered Um and that's and that's tough. You know that that holistic picture of health goes to the holistic model of how we deliver that medicine and I think if we are able to focus on the system's approach. Perhaps we can start to move the needle. Yeah, I love that, but you're right and you have to look at that whole picture and how they are all links in the chain and they all impact each other and life cycle or would a visual you you want to apply to it is good. So let's kind of migrate a little bit, as you know, into the clinician burnout. Um, obviously caused by some of the things we've already talked about, which is the pressure from the practice or the health system that owns the practice, or margins or whatever, you know, whatever it might be, to move this thing along faster. But you know, things that I hear is that that is what's causing the burnout and it's it's interesting to me too, because I see parallels sometimes in teachers, because I talk about teachers who left college and said I wanted to teach because I just wanted to help people and, you know, breathe knowledge into children and young adults and help them grow into be people and and they get a little burnt out from school, from all the bureaucracy. What I can't do? What I can do paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. You know all of that sort of stuff and I think it's similar with the with the on the physician side and the clinical side it. But I mean, there's been a lot talked about about that.

But where do you see it going? Do you see release points? Do you see institutions trying to do certain things, or are we kind of caught in this cycle that we talked about and you know, you know they we're hearing really bad stories about hospitals having to close down because there's no staff or having to reduce the amount of services they're providing because there's no staff. Um. Where do you see this going, and what's your thoughts on that? I think, uh, similar to the idea of how do we change the culture of viewing healing, we have to take a good, hard look at this concept. That has been amissed a little bit in how we deliver care. People First, and we've been missing that piece and, unfortunately, and how we're treating healthcare workers, beyond clinicians, right beyond the doctors and the nurses, to support staff that also help helps, you know, make sure that lifecycle the patient is good. We have somehow along the way, in my opinion, have lost sight of people first. You know, Um, if we go back to really understanding why people are leaving medicine, as opposed to per se, you know, creating I'll call them band AIDS and fragmented programs that stop these linkages or stop the staff shortages, I think we will go somewhere. But if we continue to piecemeal, similar to how we treat a person right, we're just treating these symptoms. We're losing sight of the root cause. We just create resilience programs and, you know, nutrition programs or even just working on a little bits of the culture, but not really taking a look at the whole end to end patient experience and the end to end health worker experience and how they're serve being, we're not going to really, in my opinion, get very far. I think that's not a sustainable way. So one of my passions about talking on the topic of organizational well being, particularly in the healthcare sector, is it it's going to require more clinicians to sit at executive leadership positions to help tease out this problem and to share their perspective about what's really broken and then develop a roadmap, a strategy, just like we would in other areas of business. So perhaps we can make transparent milestones, transparent report cards that we can deliver on a regular basis to ensure we are moving the needle forward. Um, you know, obviously, with covid and and you know the supply chains that have come afterwards and the mental health crisis for all this country. Uh, there has been an increased interest and an increase of investment from various organizations on trying to stop this, to reverse it, but I think very few organizations are really doing it right and really taking the time to say, you know what, we need, colinission leaders to be brought through these positions and to be able to help us make that impactful change. So just to understand that. So you're saying that we need to get more of the clinical staff at the executive level of the health care organizations versus businessmen, for like you know, or business businessmen and women, for lack of a better term. In other words, we need the people who are not just looking at it through the Business Lens, but the person who's looking at it through the patient and the Business Lens. At the end of the day, we're right. We has to be. We're running a profitable organization. There has to be some uh, you...

...can't just whether you're federally funded, state funded or or privately funded. At some point you can't just keep burning right. You have to at some point be able to make this sustainable entity for everybody involved. But what I hear you saying is that it should be more of we need to get more clinical influence in that C suite. I do not just in the C suite, at all different levels of management and leadership. Is Do we have a good, diverse and inclusive pool of stakeholders there at that table that ultimately signs off on that strategy? Now, you can't have everybody set at the table, that's you know, but you can create infrastructures, focus groups, committees and different things where there is a clear vertical of passing along the right information to make those decisions moving forward. Unfortunately, you know, not a lot of administrations are doing that. Majority of operations runs very different, very separate tracks than the clinical and those who are actually affecting those operational excellence, no matter how good they are as leaders, they don't have that piece because they've never actually delivered in that model before. Does that make sense? So you're it's it's gonna be hard to to really show that you're vested in understanding the problem if you've not lived in right. Well, as you say, well, they start working against each other, right, because they're looking at everything through a different Lens. Right, so as, just just by that sheer nature of looking at something through a different Lens, they both see something differently, and that that's where the Um misalignment of the operational needs or the economic model starts to starts to come apart. Yes, and you know, you probably heard me say this earlier on the show, trust is a huge currency in impacting change and that takes time and that, you know, accountability and and having that transparency on how things are how decisions are being made and how they took into consideration of all the different parties that are involved as much as possible. Uh, that that kind of shared respect and shared accountability goes, goes a long way and that's when, again, people first, and the people feel like this is they really care, this is the heart of health care. We're missing that right now, I think a little bit. So it's funny you said that because I think I saw it. Was it today or yesterday? You posted a new book that I guess you've just either finished or started, which was about trust. Stephen Covey, I guess that Stephen Covey Jr uh and the Covey Institute published. Is that? Uh, was was that? and was that insightful from the trust standpoint? Yeah, I I think so. I'm so funny that you talk about Linkedin because, and I'll go into that, because I think that this is where social media can be a lot of good. I live inspired on linkedin all the time really fantastic people that I've never met. I could have probably meant until like read some articles, someone tagged them somewhere and, Um, it's nice to just share book ideas, but yes, reading leadership books or quotes or having these conversations with other, Um, great people out there who live with the same purpose and passion about people they you know, have really helped me continue to want to be better, you know, to breathe that culture. That I think can happen and we desperately need it in this health care system today. Yeah, well, and I love that you touched upon it and I wanted to take a moment because I saw that and you know, more and more, even even at Jackson and coker, when we're looking at employee programs, that Word Trust is becoming uh. I think it's gonna be something we're going to hear more of over the next three to five years and I think it's another it's another important element of our communication and society and everything that has been somewhat...

...diminished due to speed, the speed of life, Um that I like to talk about. But I think that that Um issue is happening because trust does not get developed in a day or an hour. It gets developed over time and, as we talked about earlier, we're not a patient society today. But when we're talking about coaching UH employees and trying to develop our next generation of leadership, we've been talking about how you have to establish that bond of trust in order to really influence somebody. Otherwise it seems a little a little shallow or insincere or, at some or even worse, patronizing Um. So I was glad that I saw that you posted that piece on trust and I think that's something we're gonna have to continue to to look at and obviously you touched upon it how it's a it's a and component in the medical system. Yes, trust can be broken, just like that it can be really easily robbed. It takes a long time to put those, you know, coins into a little piggy bank, you like to call it, and I can tell you I've made my share of errors. I'm I'm imperfect and every single year, every single experience teaches me something and I would say when I first came out a residency, it took me a while to kind of abandon some ways of practicing and understanding that relationship to know, and same thing in various leadership roles. It took me a while and that's why I do very much enjoy reading books from authors that inspire me and and talking to people that, you know, show me that there's a better path and I know that. I know that people believe in that. We just need to, you know, help, rally and collaborate and make sure that everyone feels lifted and supported. So just as we kind of come around the home stretch here, the final curve Um, you talked about that the that the organizations are going to have to Um. You know, look at the clinician, at the executive level, all levels of the organization continue to stay focused on UM patient report cards, level of service, quality of care, and but what do you see? If you kind of crystal ball, but over the next three to five years, where is this UH clinician burnout problem, clinician shortage problem? Where do you think it's gonna Land? Do you have any ideas? I don't have a crystal ball and I tend to live with positivity. I do think that there is momentum and more clinicians being more bold and unafraid to speak out. You know I've talked about one of our my colleagues. I am my very you know very much Kelly stick work. She's on your show as well. But many people are going at all different levels now to try to impact a more meaningful conversation about taking the time to understand the root cause of this problem and I think if organizations who are doing it right can continue to prove value to the organizations that has areas of needs improvements in this then perhaps we can influence that change. I would love to also see this problem again beyond clinician burnout or nursing burnout. It's more about again, health workers as a general like you know from the environmental workers who transport the patients, so that you know just so many different peticians. Yeah, so many different levels. Anyone who is showing compassion and trying to give um can easily suffer from compassion fatigue. So I think if we have more organizations embrace roles like chief...

...well being officers and wellness committees that really are helping to hold the system accountable for sustainable change or strategy moving forward, then I think we can go somewhere. And I think also we recently saw at a federal level the surgeon general stepping up to declare advisory on this really terrible pandemic of of clinical burnout Um. So I do think that there's going to be some more regulations or incentives in place to have the health care systems do a better job of really not just thinking about the staff shortage but making sure the whole entire shared experience becomes an aim of quality, because this does ultimately impact quality of care too for the patients. So it comes full circle. Happy People tend to be happier to other people, and so we can really get that point across, I think it will make a difference and three or five years I think it's a good enough time period to impact that that positive change. I predict. If you told me what I would predict for next week. Unfortunately, nothing's going to change much. There's no surgery for that. Yeah right, there's no prescription. So we're just gonna have to take it slowly and move well, and I think that's that's going to be the lesson there, um. So thank you so much for your time. I love the insights. I love your approach to medicine and and the and the whole, the whole person healing and Um, I just, you know, really excited to continue to hear from you and and and follow you on Linkedin and work with you. But, as I always do when I close out the episodes, I'd always love to ask each guest who, who is your hero? So many people in my life, but I will have to say that my friend the angle, who is no longer with us, she passed in her nineties. She was one of my health coaching clients who I did home yoga therapy too, and polates too. That's a nutrition and health coaching with and watched her live at home with love with her family and with her support staff, and I wild her resilience and her glow. Every guy, you know, no matter what day, she could be walking with her cane, her walker. She was always wanting to be bright for other people. She'll take the time to to feel good in her body, with her clothes and her smile that she wears, and she was one of the biggest philanthropists for the upstate Rochester community that I know and, Um, just really admired her beauty inside the now and I hope that I lived to my nineties with that same type of fire and that same type of impact and wanting to just leave the world a little bit of a better place. Mm Hmm, that to tell me her name again. The Angle, the angle, mm HMM, that's great. I Love I love that somebody who obviously touched you and had a long term impression, and I'm sure she's smiling somewhere saying that you know that that's what she wanted to do, right, was to touch people and, as you said, leave the world a little bit of a better place. So, Um, we need more the angles in the world, right, yes, I think so. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. I love the conversation and uh, we'll continue to to talk about these things and hopefully have you back again. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ted. Keep up your great work. Thank you so much. You've been listening to heroes of healthcare. For more, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit us at heroes of healthcare PODCAST DOT COM.

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