Heroes of Healthcare
Heroes of Healthcare

Episode · 4 months ago

Mental Health: Treating Trauma and PTSD in Veterans

ABOUT THIS EPISODE


Psychiatry is about as damning a pathology as you can imagine. You’re dealing with patients suffering from depression, anxiety, and PTSD brought on by unthinkable trauma.

But for Dr. Michael Massa, it’s a calling that brings immense fulfillment. Dr. Massa has treated veterans and the underserved around the world enabling them to live their lives to the fullest. In this episode, I talk with him about:

  • Finding fulfillment and purpose in medicine
  • Getting knighted by the Vatican and working in a Catholic convent in Jordan
  • Treating veterans with the Wounded Warrior Project
  • Approaching treatments for patients with PTSD
  • The psychological trauma of COVID-19

Heroes of Healthcare is hosted by Ted Weyn.

To hear this interview and more like it, subscribe to Heroes of Healthcare on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You were listening to heroes of healthcare, the podcast that highlights bold selfless professionals in the healthcare industry focused on transforming lives in their communities. Let's getinto the show, welcome to the heroes of health carepodcast on your host Ted Wayne, as we've discussed on the show severaltimes before. We want to continue to give equal air time to not only theclinical and physical health and those heroes that are serving them, but alsofor the mental health as well, so I'm very excited to day to have doorMichael Massa join us. Dr Massa did his undergraduate work at the University ofVirginia attended medical school at the University of South Carolina and thenreturned back to the University of Virginia to do his residency for overtwenty five years, Dr Massa has served his country in various medicalendeavors, which include serving as a medical director and senior staff atLonsdale Regional Medical Center, treating our wounded warriors returningfrom Iraq and Afghanistan as a captain in the Air Force for several years, hespent time treating the developmentally disabled and was a sole psychiatricconsultant for the State of California. At the northern cow developmentaldisability facility, currently Dor Massa is treating patients at a largeCatholic hospital system in California, where he resides with his wife and hisdaughter. Doctor Mass has been knighted by the Vatican, as he has treatedpatients at a Catholic convent in Jordan to those who were fleeing theSyrian regime. It is my pleasure- and I am thankful for his service to havedoor Massa join us on the hears of health care podcast today welcome tothe heroes of health care podcast, Dr Massa, thank you for joining us. Thankyou too, very happy to be here. Yeah. We're excited, as we always continue towant to focus on mental health. We've had some great stories and some greatconversations with folks and all around the physical side of things and thedoctorate side of things on the clinical and talking about setting upmakeshift hospitals in New York City and things like that dealing with coid,but we know that mental health is as if not more or equally important to thephysical side of things. So we want to continue to bring a spot light on it.So we thank you for joining us today, a R. I agree with what you said about theroll psychiatric plays and all aspects, medical care yep great, so I alwayswant to jump in. If you don't mind, tell us a little bit. The audiencealways loves to hear a little bit about the person on the other side, and sotell me a little bit about your background. Where you grew up. I knowyou have a unique story and I'd love you to share a little bit of your storyof how you got here and what excited you about getting into psychiatry andwhat got you into health care sure it was born in New Jersey. My father wasan air force aviator. He was an air force officer for dedicates and wemoved around a bit and that included time spent in Germany, which I wouldeventually go back to get to that a few seconds, and I think, before I vereverwant to talk about myself. I would want to talk about the fact that I have ahusband of thirty years. I am a father of a brother vot me two year old Shojinand after finishing high school, my parents were very open minded in termsof what career I could go into as long as I was going into the United States,air force and anything else, but another time perhaps but wascommissioned out of the University of Virginia, and I worked in a non legal field for aboutsix years, and I remember one time being at my Parents House and shuttingwith my wife and I was in the Air Force in the field that had a lot to do withthe war. So pack things like that and it was over the glory days were over. Imean we want the Cold War, which is a great thing, and I said what are wegoing to do and my wife- and I decided...

I remember exactly where we were in thehouse. She said I go to law school. I just ceded to go to medical school,which was the easiest part about that decision. Getting into medical school,saying medical school successful as Vestar partes back and that took me tothe Medical University of South Carolina and then I went back to Ubafor residency, and I think- and this is interesting me bringing this up,because I was talking with my daughter about what motivates you with certaincareers because she's at that age versus Tong to and just thinking aboutthese things- and I said you know one of the key features as you have to havea sense of. Not only do I like doing this, I mean we all like eating lobsterright, but you can't do that as a career, but I said what is it going tofulfil you? What is going to make you feel good about who you are, and Ithink for that reason I found medicine really alluring, because at the end ofthe day he got to feel content about who you are and what you're doing inmedicine on a good day provides on a bad day. It's certainly will quitefrankly, provide it as well, so that's not a bad deal and from there I wantedto psychiatry, because the city is the combination of a very medical, realscience that combines the art of medicine, with some commitment tounderstanding. Everything is not black and white in terms of diagnosis andtreatment, and I was say that next to certain illnesses like cancer childhoodcancers, Schac is about as dark as you can getit's about as damning pathology as you can imagine, and if you can alleviatethat stuff right, I think you've got a good job and I would go one stepfurther and say if I can talk about this in terms of what I do to Simper atsome future day, I think I'm Goin t be okay, internat show that's it o. So oneof the questions that I had in terms of your experience in your background, I'dlove to talk a little bit more about is, as I mentioned, in the in the biography,united by the Vatican, treating patients and Catholic convent in Jordanfleeing Syria, the Syrian regime. I'm sure that was quite an experience. Canyou tell the listeners a little bit more about that? How did thatopportunity come about, and what was that experience? Like sure? A number ofyears ago, my wife and I were fortunate enough to get into some volunteer workwith Catholic groups. My wife helped up with establishing trust for thedevelopment only disabled, so you don't have nine cousins coming out of thewood work with the parents. Past work and I started doing work with Catholiccharities in Chicago, and I spent about two years running a click andeventually things moved forward, and there were a couple of other things. Idid that it kind of were so in I O and we got united by the Vatican in termsof being in the equestrian or of the holy supend, which has a very large commitment to serving Christians inHollywood, and I know what it is I now he other thing we did not, and Idecided that the best way for me to share with a Quester Oter, which is afrensied. What I do was to do a couple of clinics and the holy and it's in aman, Jordan and Jordan, is a great plex at called Jordan. The land of fun,Bridal Hospitality, Super Quick Story. You go to Jordan. We meet some onesuper friendly in the first five minutes. Five minutes later year askedto have dinner out their house, and fifteen minutes later will actuallyonce you're at the house. They ask how come you have to leave after threehours? That's what y the JERDANS are like they're trying to evil. They havediplomatic relations with all the countries, including Israel. It's adifferent place, very a lot of respect...

...for the Jordan of is anyway, so I'm atthe convent in man and I'm working with the really really ill. I'm going to tellyou two stores and the first one was right before I left and I'm you know,I'm going over on British are I'm going into from Chicago to Geneva, and thenI'm checking the flight until I'm on and I'm speaking with the woman whoruns the clink she's like the administrator, and it was reader onMother's Day, and I said well Happy Mother's Dad and she said well, I'm aconsecrated Virgin Stil, but she said all these children here. I see them asmy being near mother and I thought that was really cool, so it was. I not, Ididn't know she was in none and that when I got there we were dealing with,and this is the great thing about it and it makes you feel good. All medirect makes you feel good to be a Catholic. Ninety, nine percent of thepeople do not speak English. They speak Arabic. Ninety five percent of them areIslamic, they're, not Christian, but they are all appreciative and you're,not just dealing with a touching, because you can't say well, look whatyou see a good friend of mine he's a Interni still help you. You doeverything, but it was predominantly dealing with the development onlydisabled who had a lot of neurological psychiatric Pathologie and the best story I have about thisand to this day, can bring the PATERII I'm trying to explain with mytranslator to this woman why the child is not able to nurse the breast and thechild. Miss Harson even to the stains ciners has a significant development,all the ability- and I, with the translator, I'm trying to explain thisand you're trying to avoid the tournament ally retarded, but the childunfortunately suffers from AA severe intellectual or that I ever clear- andI finally said- and this is what I made her get- I said so I was so hard. Isaid God likes you and me, but he loves yourchild and then she got so that to me, wow, just in a nut show is what it'sall about and then again you know, and then at least you're Janin. Oh my God,you have to say notice, seven dinner invitations and your F is Kate, comewhere Pope Francis would eventually go to provented went to and they do suchgood work and again it's beautiful. Most of these people are Christian.There might be two Catholics there, but your serving it's like Jesus want t beasking. Well what religion are you and I can't understand because you're, notspeaking the king's English, but it was just absolutely one and they took me atyeah so that that was really my favorite story and then actually it may.It was even made better when my daughter came with me and I Tereian Edto ask about that too yeah yeah. So, if you want to like, I can tell you nowwhen you wait, whatever you want to each other that no go go ahead. Tell meabout the experience with your honor. Looking in Europe, I'm treating ourwinged barriers with my team in Germany and my wife enjoyed her art in Rome andmy daughter is dead. What on we go? When are we going to go? What are wegoing to go? And I said: Okay, fuck, cal, Jordan, royal, Jordanian air orsee if they'll give us a discount, because this is going to get expensive.So we got a little bit of a break like seventy five bucks we fly until on, andmy daughter was, I think it or like first year second year of high school,that was Thanksgiving and she did. She was like a medial student. She reallyworked. I had to do the blood pressures chart and everything getting the medsand, at one point the little boy urinated on her, because he had a Sesarand I said to her you're such a cool, chick you're, the only cheerleader Iknow who on Thanksgiving got urinated...

...on, because you want to be Leger, youcould have been doing a million other things right, a million other things,and here you are enjoying with me or sleeping in the convent. You know thisis not lerisco on is not the first seasons, but here you are with me and Isaid, you're a cool chick, and that was a that's a treat forfilling experience fully well and I'm and I'm sure, to this day. Sheremembers that expression. You know when she is a cool check. It's amazinghow those experiences become foundational N H in who we areand and what we do and and all of that, but that's really well quick. So Iagree that you really articulate that well you're, absolutely crace you'reright yeah, but you know what a e t e, what's the expression where the sumtotal of our experiences yeah. So so you touched on it. So let's talk aboutsome of the the wounded warriors work that you did too and love to hear alittle bit more about that. Another place where my heart goes to at timesis the veterans and they're underserved, and and how do we continue to increasethat? But I'd love to hear about some of the work you were doing in Europewith them and what were some of the things you were seeing and how were youguys treating them and what was some of the keys to having success? I wasoverseas. I was assigned to last: Do recal Medical Center. It became thedirector of the Psychiatry Department under get this. I was actually in theafit of surgery, US thysel as a psychiatrist, and they had under theDepartment of Bast Thysel. My boss was kind of that. We had a division fortreating chronic pain, because these are soldiers who got that from Iraq andAfghanistan. A lot of violence coming their way. I eds pataches that kind of work, butwhen apparently kind of works, it really doesn't work right and there wasa lot of physical and psychiatric trump. So what we found was that a lot ofthese service members were at the point where they were going to believe themilitary. They were going to no longer be considered medically able to serveso the services came up with this three week program. We would say: Look, let'ssee if we can get you conditioned again and we did interventionalist treatmentslike radio frequency, oblations for pain and they were pretty good, andthen we did my program and it consisted of pts O tsby seeing them individually as the physician, seeing them with the groupsand also really big. I had a spiritual compo where we would have a session onhow do your spiritual life help navigate you to another, a point intime, get it better and rite wren that for two years and you wouldd takesoldiers who were exploded were in. There are Humbie that got rolled overwet Danish and we got them back and we have like anet five N. ninety seven. Ninety eight percent success rate, so we had guyswho couldn't tie their shoes again on horrendous pain. I've seen things noone else should ever see in their lives and by the time we ran them throughthis program of getting the moving getting their psychiatric physical needto Correy the same thing fall treated, we got them back into service, and youknow, in terms of the opio epidemic. Are both bear us rat for chronic painwas three per cent which is not heard of. I don't know any of your listenerscan say anyone who can say lo, I'm doing better any other physicians, Iwould say finding to len for it. So that is great. These guys got back intothe service they didn't have to retire and right. Every iteration. Iwould have to give the graduation...

...speech. You can really get choked upbecause you're not dealing with people living in Beautiful Santa BarbaraCalifornia. We came from Santa Barbara with trust and each funds. These arepeople from towns. You haven't heard of what they call the fly over states,which is an insult to these people and they're serving their nation andthey're serving sometimes because they had no option, but if it wasn't anoption, it's what they also wanted to do and they were giving their lives andmore and we treated these people with the respect, the efforts that they hadcome to them and they deserved every bit of our care. These are really good.People eat well, obviously, they're sacrificing a lot. So we need to givethem everything we can. So, let's talk, I want to touch on a little bit. Youknow so you talked about the low opod thing. What do you attribute that to so?If you said, if somebody said it was lower, I want to know how. So if I said,you know that to you, how how did you attribute it? What was acombination of things that made that so successful, effective treatment? Not Wedidn't get these people hooked on opiates, they be come in, they couldn'teven smoke, we tested them for nicotine and we said you, the rule was duringphysical therapy. You couldn't say I can't more than three times you couldget kicked out the program. They never really got to out programs right, butthey had the support of something bigger than themselves. Now, Look I'vebeen practicing, medicine was twenty five years. The Camaraderie you have inthe military is just different. If I just different, so there was a realsense of viewer here. You are part of the team you are serving your nation,you are a member of the United States. Are the usual was armin, sometimes herforce occasionally Abe? You are part of this big or good. You have people hereto support you and you will come through you're going to go through P to Ch, you no meet Dor Massa individually. You meet him for allthese groups, it would run, and you were all part of the team and you willsucceed and you're going to get the best introvetido. As I said, RadioFrequency oblations where you go in and you basically destroy the sensoryganglion, so those inputs are felt and you're going to start me and you justhave the real wrap around cure and commitment that, quite frankly, youdon't have I've, not conies work now, and then that I was a significantdifference and these guys got better and they were able to still. I had tosign up whether they were still eligible to be in the military. At theend of this a week program that I had to go through and make that decision-and I maybe two or three times I said no- and it was usually what they wantit anyway, but you know right all things being equal. If you tried yougot to stay in this presense wow, that's great and knowing really notmuch at all about pts D, and you know dealing with patients who have gonethrough unspeakable experiences and seen unspeakable things. You know theexpression. I can't UNSEE that right at once, I've seen it it's in my mind, sopsychiatrically. Is it really about how to cope with that? Is it teaching themhow to cope with those things? Those feelings, those emotions that have comefrom those you know difficult situations. Now I'm going to go onstill further, I'm going to say it's definite. There is only three chaps ofillnesses in tess in Tutai, treatable in surer, and I strive for carver whenat all Os and what I do with these. I going to give you a story and it has alot to do with support and returning to base line and not politicising thispathology. So I will tell you the best story. At about puts D, I had what'scalled an Cois, it's not commission officer in charge and they're like theadministrator and they deal and most of...

...the folks there who are enlisted. So wehave very few officers because, quite frankly, officers manage files, the enlisted engagement.So I have this noise, who is down range when they say down range that means onthe ground. So he tells me the story of his truth, and this is in test so he's.I think he was in Afghanistan and he had this like nineteen year old, who was guarding the form of before thebase, and he comes up to him. He tells me andstarts getting his face screaming at him because he says you get a get shot.When you do your perimeter patrol, you can't walk in a straight line. Yougotta weave. You got to stop you move to the side, you moved forward and youjust can't be a steady moving target and he's hollering, I god and as histelling this guy these things to say this lot. I mean quite the bestinterest and he's right up. You know this is the military they're not sayingwell what I would suggest you know he's a his nose with his price pump down ared. All of a sudden in this round goes right through the soldiers shot, theguys holler now because they were sitting still and the brains of thisfirst soldier went over my Coss Pott. So that's ptst wow, that's what we're dealing with andI sometimes think you know. I said we don't. I don't want to ever politicisedthe diagnosis, but there's such a thing, it's real Patesi and then sometimes Ithink we overdid your stuff, but these guys this is what we were working thisguy. This is such a cool story about this NCO say this is some fellow NorthCarolina who talked like it was so or go. Look like it was some blubber fromNorth Carolina and then you find out that he is why have adopted like threeAfrican kits from like when they were in Ethiopia and you're thinking what a saint this guy did not comeacross like Angelina July with the sixteen kids who are all peoplemagazine that she's adopted. I found out like six seven months later, I sayshe'll be a picture of your kids that I'm thinking, I'm not sure those areyour by love children and they were right from like Ethiopia, and I thoughtman you're a saint. No one would ever talk into you think you're, the fellowand I thought maybe that's one well, it certainly is a you know. We kind ofcover here on the podcast. You know, but it's clear right. We don't we don'tknow, you know, compassion is required for everybody all the time. We neverknow what somebody's been going through just recently on one of the podcastlinked in chats. We were talking about that about the wearing of masks, andyou know you don't know what the you know just because you don't think youwant to wear a mask. You know the person, you don't know what the personnext you is going through. Maybe they have a very compromise system andthey're trying to protect themselves, and you know, as you know, that's whatjust struck me when you talked about that story. Right here was the personand persona that you saw from the external cover you just never know andwhat a story you know he had and what an unfortunate experience he had to gothrough yeah and this guy he was just everyone of the hospital wanted him tobe in charge of their troops. I mean this guy was just amazing and then Ihad another showing for the Philippines who one point we have a old gruff andlisted fellow comes in. Who was like one rank below and he says, but that Ican't understand that Chinaman, because we had a Korean member of our teamwho's. Actually, in the states army- and this guy said you will never usethat turn again and I thought whoa well that is so cool. This guy got calledout like that. I'm thinking you know. He said that man might be responsiblefor saving your life on thereand, we're...

...speaking with terms like that, it's pretty cool yeah. I have to do athing by me. I said: Do you want me to handle this and he said sir? I got it,but you can do a better job of it because I would have started you know.Look, maybe that's not the way. People can really engage an commit this guy w.He had none of that thing. So, anyway, he gas is a. He was going to shut itdown fast yebe ore. We transitioned to some of the current things today thatyou and I have talked about prior to our connection today. So when you talkabout the curing of the pts D, that's interesting to me and I like tounderstand that a little bit better, because I wouldn't have thought thatthat's something that you can quote cure. I would think that it is only acoping mechanism. It's how do we deal with it? So can you explain to myselfand the listeners a little bit more about from the psychiatric approach?How do we go abouto that and then how do we declare that that is cured, and Iwould think you know if I've got a cut and it's better it's cured right or ifI've got a cold, and I feel better, it's cured psychiatrically psychiatrywise. How do you know that the person's cure? Okay? That's a wonderful questionbecause it gets to I think, a bit. Your question. Psychiatric dullnesses only exists as long as because they candisrupt ver ability to live, love and work to the false and that's the metricwe use. So if you have a cut, it is preventing you from holding a testrecord for in a baseball. It's a current illness. But if that cut healsitself, you might see the you know. Maybe a tin a little bit of star Sisser,something healing, but you can still throw a baseball hit, a forehand aswell as you ever could. It ceases to be, quite frankly and as you can, a ptst is the anxiety to sort anxiety.Disorders are treatable and, I believe quite correctly, they can be cure, theycease to be curable and they cease to be treatable. Will we make it into acottage industry where we have these fictions coming back forever, enablingthe pathology and not the patient, and that's a distinction that I think iscrucial. I want to let the patient know that their identity is infinitely morethan their illness, and that is something I don't think we use do inthe field of medicine and Serio, and there are various ways you can get tothat and point and the best thing about ptst with time, which is quite aneffective, feel it for a lot of things. The symptomatology does minimize, butby engaging these patients with the realistic expectation that it doesn'twhat it curred does not have to predict their future abilities, you give them a frame work of an endpoint which is inherently healthy and attainable. How you do that? Well,that's the hour and have discussion, but when that Rosier therapy, whetherit's desensitized, whether it's providing the reengagement, those aretwo things and, quite frankly, I think it is a combination of medicine,COGNITA therapy support time and probably the biggest therapy. I thinkthat works is gradual and graduated explosion and these people can have projectivelives and if their lives are no longer encumbered to the point that it doesn'taffect their ability to live, love and work to the Post. That's secure andthat's a win, but sometimes we said expectations where we wish to fulfillour comfort with the people who are treating them and stead of the peoplewere treated and every time I've ever been in a discussion about this I'll,always remind my medical students,...

...nursing staff and team that the comfortlevel that I'm interested is that my own ideal- and I hope I truly aise likethat- it's not theirs, that's much as it is the petion and that's what we'rehating for. In generally, most people are veryreceptive to the fromand for the most part. That's why it's people likeyourself and others got into this line of business and the line of work andwhat you do because, as you said earlier in the whole, in the in ourconversation, it's really about finding purpose in life that keeps US fulfilledit's when we identify that purpose. Today, some of the younger generationand I'm old. So I can say this will say it's it's what I'm passionate about,but I think it's the same thing. What you find is purpose that gives youpurpose is what, where your passion lies, and that would be that's whatgives us the motivation to get up every day and do what we do yeah. I wouldagree with you. I think it's newance in terms of how rephrasing, but I think,the sense of fulfilment than what makes this full is actually more importantthan passion, because passion is driven by what we're achieving fulfilment. Ithink in the end, is what we've achieved for others, and I think that'sreally good distinction action and I just came up with during the talk there.You go you better coin that we get a coin. So, let's transition, if we, ifwe can we so as we're starting a head to the as they say the home stretch ofour conversation. So let's talk a little bit about pts D or stress anxiety, as the numbersare starting to come down. As we hear here, we are recording this in you know,in early March of the anniversary, I think we're right we're recording thison the anniversary of the WHO's proclamation, that this was a pandemichard to believe a year a year ago. That's that's what happened, but sowe're recording it on this day and we're seeing numbers coming down.Vaccination numbers are coming out and we won't debate whether that's fastenough or slow enough or anything like that, but there's hope on the horizon.We're seeing some things coming back to whatever we want Ted to describe hisnormal sy, but obviously there's a lot that we've talked about and we'reseeing in the in the news that there's going to be a post, traumatic stressfrom this or there is a belief that there is going to be talk. If you don'tmind talk to us a little bit about what you think, that is what you think thatwill be, how will it manifest itself and again? What can we do to help? Letme start off by saying: Cove. The car virus is a very real deal when you havefour hundred and something thousand deaths. So we was a five hundred sandyeah. I think we I mean domestically it's around five hundred million fivehundred tousand. No one can say: that's not real and I've heard people say well,you know maybe serve. I guess, let's say is: Let's say it's port with us.Let's say the people who had it. What have I other complications, weal,you're gonna argue in three hundred thousand is acceptable, so ovid is veryrare. This needs to also to be emphasized it's getting better in myhospital. At one point, a hundred of our four hundred bets at Covil weredown to thirties where people are getting vaccinated. You Bru up a point.You could argue whether the vaccines are getting up quickly or not for nothere's the deal they're not until everyone's been vaccinated, and this isAmerica. We need to be doing way back. I think, and again you not ask to mepolitical questions, but my God. This is the country that defeated Nazism. Weput a man on the moon, we don't have a good logistics. The plot we can'thandle that so the vaccine needs to get out and people need to take it and forthose who don't believe in vaccines with the psychiatric term, you're crazy. You got to take you back, so you got bea big boy and girl. The needle hurts a little bit. You you'll go part you'll.Let and you'll be better yeah atter. We...

...do so now. As for the PT S D help, Ithink the pts D element will be, unfortunately, sure by those who lostloveless. I think there has to be a real proximal relationship, because wedon't want to explode this diagnosis and make it a diagnosis because ofasportation Vius, that's potation biases I mean now I'm going to find itout there and we do find it out there. I just want to stop you for a secondsay that again, because I don't know that I understand what that is thatwhat I know what is are, but I didn't what was Haserac bias is in illness,predominatly held by medical doctors, who wish to prove something and your enthusiasm start getting to. Thatpoint is sometimes blinding you to other evidence which might suggestother ones. Thank you got it. Okay. I think I keep Prois for hand on theplanet. Other people look at me and say you don't have the greatest port handon the planet, but I'm thinking well, yes, I do look out. Well, you get it. Igot it yeah, so there are people who lost love ones who witnessed thattraumatic loss, but there's another element out there, and this is where wekind of lose track of this. This Christmas. There are a lot ofrestaurants in the town I live. There were a lot of people on fire and Ithought I don't think they're going to be a lot of Christmas tree sales and Idon't think they're going to be a lot of presents under the tree for childrenwho er rarely get pristes and there's going to be a lot of unemployment wasgoing to be a lot of economic dispar. There's going to be a lot of lonelypeople, there's going to be an increase in depression, would it be necessarilyptst? Quite frankly, I'm not prepared to do there, but you're going to haveany time you have an economic turned out. You have en in Christiandepression and excite very real, very real bad, and that's what concerns me andproviding safety and the return affection. IC stability are crucialthat if someone said to me, what did Covin do it took loves. It tookpeople's financial sense of I can pay my bills and in the end, it left peoplewith love, opression, exactly and significant work, and that to me is thebiggest immediate concernin isy coming out of this. So if I understand youright so if the and again commemorating the day were on, I think last night,they voted to pass this new stimulus built, which is going to infuse a lotof different revenue and capital back into the system. So if that achievesthe the success that they hope it will it bridges the gap that you said, afinancial downturn, hardship on the on the lives, hardships on the people andthat elevatess that if I understand you're right, what you're implying isthat that will lessen the psychiatric challenges. The anxietychallenges that society may achieve so that they're beyond the just economic,let's get the economy going again, there's a real mental health value tothis. Okay, I paid my mortgage by the lack of hope, kindness and generalsense of things are going. Okay on the planet. Seventy percent of Li mortgageis probably paid by people being need to each other, and then that createsdepression that creates anxieties, and you know trying to use so the entirething to us with it. And if you then add on the stresse of you are aemployed for six months. You're staying home, you can't go to work because yougot to be there with your kids. I have a Missa Day at work. I guess Iappreciate this, but I'm not experiencing it and that's aninfinitely different perspective and I've got a daughter, and you know theeconomy's tough for her she's doing.

Okay, I have missed a DA work really,so I can't say I understand what these people are going through. I hope Iappreciate it, but it's hellish. It's really a you know. We minimized. I think the degree ofisolation and loneliness place in does lots and without that sense of you know,going to work, seeing people you know being able to come home and literally Ithought they wot give me a lot. Fanarin have a damn thing to put over the treefor their kids and that's tough, yeah, so yeah. Ithink it's it's a very real ill lest that moves beyond just a inflammatory,piminy response. If pop don't want so on the on theglass half full side, what is the pandemic? Give us psychologically. Dowe come out of this? Appreciating things better? Do we love each otherbetter? Do we realize what we you know so here I am, as you talked aboutChristmas and I'm over the holidays, and I'm saying look I'm sitting aroundwith my family and last year I couldn't do that. I mean did. Does that get loston the psyche of people? Does that have an a lasting impression, or do we saywow? This is great. We're back to the old ways and human nature just goesback to doing what it was doing. Is there? Is there something that comesout of this? Hopefully, sometimes I've been around a lot of things. I thinkthat, may we think that's not possible. I would like it too, but I don't thinkso. Ben You think human nature goes back to human nature, yeah and don'tgive you Rochin there's a lot of good things about human nature. Yeah, that'snot all bad, it's not that God Mesa sile bet. I would like it to be thecase of like people to be nice with each other. I like people to be kindwith each other. I would like us to understand that you know we have apandemic, it's very real and we have leaders in is a local statement whoappreciate that M. I would like people to understand that the greatest movingof the block and tackle is done by the poor. You know I live in a very nicearea and when they close one of the potes, I thought it's always nice tohave an ocean view for the people who have to claim Etor. Thus they don'tknow a job yeah and for the people you know in the hospital who are removingall the hazardous material. Those are thepeople I mean they're working. The fact they were CRIAI would care they werecar sure. So I appreciate you. Sharing are your time with us today. Iappreciate your service to the veterans, your service, to the underserved andaround the world, and your passion for compassion and, as I warned you and Itold you, he always kind of closed, my episodes with the question as we'rerunning out of time. WHO's your hero, who was your hero, growing up who'syour hero to day, who are the heroes of Dr Mass's world, come in I'll. Do that by talking aboutour talk of Care Heros about sixteen years ago, I got up to me,I'm not going to give you either name. I met a priest who was married, he's aCatholic prices Barry, but he's part of this eastern right where Rome said:Okay in one thousand hire hundred and eighty six, you guys can get married sohe's married. He is to write Catholic. His wife is in a he's, a hospital chat.They have four children and I kind of live in the atmosphere o, especiallythe lighter. I was younger. What private school is your kid going to getinto what private high schools your kid going to get into? Who knows who the special little committees andyou've noticed the problem of that it has a lot of giant emptiness, it'sgoing to come full circle, a or so my friend, the Catholic priest, his wife,the R N, but from another country other practicing American their for childrenas Electon, and two of them...

...are cranially conjoined, full conditodevelopment, but their currently can join the official development, fullFishin Development, but they're currently conjoined and I thought well. We can teach me a few thingsabout being a better parent about being a better husband being a better fatherbeing a better individual, an maybe I can learn a few things about being abetter Martin, passionate, kinder, nicer position. I thought he you gosometimes, and these people have been to my house with sell, tops mydaughter's friends with them, my wife. We were friends and we were involved inhelping them with some of their health care, as we tried our best in terms ofin producing a surgical option with some of the people who do these thingsand their health care Carus, they know they're, not health care, her ouse.That's a mistake: Let's just go with heroes here, it is that's great yeahyou know is, as you say, it's the people doing the things that are justhard, but they just do it because they feel compassionate around it and theyfeel purpose around it and everything like that so well, I thank you forsharing that story. I thank you for sharing the stories that you did fortoday. It's been fun to catch some time together and just thank you for being apart of this journey that we're on that we call the heroes of health care,podcast and actual a this has been. This is a good therapy for me too, asyou express things there sometimes cleanly dark well, if we help you atall a little bit, we're happy that it works out that way. So I again thankyou twice. Well, thanks! So much for being a partof our show, and we just look forward to talking to you some more down theroad thanks a lot doctor Messa. Thank you. Cheers you've been listening toheroes of health care for more subscribe to the show in your favoritepodcast player, or visit us at heroes of health care. PODCAST.

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