Heroes of Healthcare
Heroes of Healthcare

Episode · 1 month ago

What Are Locum Tenens and Why We Need Them In Healthcare

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In every profession, there are systems in place to cover for when someone can’t show up for work. In education we have substitute teachers but in healthcare, we have Locum Tenens.

In today’s episode, our hosts Ted Weyn and Olivia Reed, come together to share how the physicians and doctors come to work in Locum Tenens, the inspiration for the Heroes of Healthcare podcast, and the work that Jackson & Coker is doing to lobby for legislation that supports this needed career path.

Join us as we discuss:

  • Legislation that impacts locum tenen physicians 
  • Why hospitals and health centers need locum tenens
  • Career paths for doctors who want more flexibility and independence 

To hear this interview and more like it, follow Heroes of Healthcare on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wh erever you listen to podcasts.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Heroes of Healthcare in your favorite podcast player.

Because then they could have access to health insurance and their taxes will be taken out as they should. And as states are continuing to pass laws that are helping to ninety nine contractors, they are hurting others like the physicians. You're listening to Heroes of Healthcare, the podcast that highlights bold, selfless professionals in the healthcare industry focused on transforming lives in their communities. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the Heroes of Healthcare podcast. I'm your host Ted Wayne, and I'm joined today by my co host, Olivia Read the newly named Olivia Reid. Congratulations on your recent nuptials. Thank you, UM, and we are taking this episode today to talk to you about something that we mentioned on the show often frequently. It's a big part of Olivia. My day in and day out are are as i'd like to say, our day jobs, UM, where we work within the locum tenants industry with a company, as you guys have heard, Jackson and Coker, and we provide temporary doctors across the country. UM. But we wanted to come to the listeners to explain and understand better what that is so that as you hear us talk about it from week to week as we come out with the shows, hopefully you'll be a little bit better informed in that way. Um, It's part of the reason why we started Heroes of health Care podcast was to highlight those people who are doing extraordinary work um in sometimes and often rural or underserved areas. So we love the work we do. We feel that we're definitely serving a very needed thing in today's society and in the world, especially with the shortage of doctors, and so we wanted to give you a little more information on what that is and how that relates to our show. So, Olivia, why don't you kick us off and tell us If somebody says to you what's locum tenants? What, what do you tell them? Yeah, well, no one. I love that we're doing an episode on this because you're right, this is this is our day job. This is how we are even introduced to a ton of these healthcare heroes that you speak to. And the reason that this podcast even even exists. Um, someone told me recently, and I thought that this was a really simplistic way to describe it, but they said that locum tenants doctors are essentially like substitute teachers, but for physicians, and I felt like that that was that was a really good thing. We're also sometimes compared to travel nursing, except we're not travel nursing. But but it's very similar. Um so locum tenants. It's it's it's when a doctor decides to go and and help out at another facility. Um whenever there's a gap in coverage. So there might be a doctor who is maybe that...

...primary care physician is, you know, going on maternity leave or god forbid, they actually give themselves a vacation for once and there's no one there for backup. Patients are still being seen and need to be seen. Um. So they that particular facility will call an agency like ours and ask if there is a is someone who could come and fill in for that doctor while they're away. Um So we we get to do that quite a good bit. I'm sure ted where you are in Montana during the heavy ski season, there's probably an an influx and orthopedic surgeons and trauma surgeons that are needed in the area, and I'm sure that the hospitals around there are using us to try to find more for that time of year. Yeah. No, that's a great example, I think for sure certain seasonality things and of any place that has a seasonal influx and um in population, any vacation places. I'm sure up in the northeast, Martha's Vineyard, which I think I once heard was the had the large largest seasonal population change of any place in the country. But yeah, their demand has to exponentially go up, you know. And then we see things like the Indian Health Services where the Indian reservations are underserved and it's hard for them to pull or rural Kentucky. Um has become a big place for us to serve UH in the ability to bring in the right providers, the right physicians who can serve the community that they can't potentially always draw the full time physician who wants to work in the hospital. So if they need surgery or certain things like that, they can schedule them, bring in a locum tenant to come in and do the surgical work over the course of a week of that month, and then schedule again. So it certainly is and I think we've seen a bigger reliance on it. Or I'd say there's two things that come to mind that where to me, it's continued to grow. One is the fact that younger doctors coming in want more of that what we call what us old folks call the millennial lifestyle, which is flexibility and going where they want to go and when they want to go and seeing different places, and and Locum Tenants as a career choice path for a physician certainly does that, you know. And then we also talk about the increased shortage of doctors and physician burnout and things like that, and you know, we definitely think that Locum Tenants is allowing companies, healthcare companies to fill that gap. So if a doctor works two weeks on and two weeks off at their current hospital, they can fill in one of those weeks that they're off by helping out some other community that might be in need. So it certainly is something that is growing and continuing to change um over the years since we've been in the business. Uh, It's it's pretty astonishing the amount of days...

...that local tenants doctors across the country are working. I mean it's it's you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of days that doctors from all different specialties. This isn't just one specialty, this is all different specialties have local tenants physicians who are going flying all over the country every single day to try to go and help a hospital or a community and need. COVID also was a huge, uh opportunity for local tenants physicians. I mean with that our company alone UM in Georgia, we had unfortunately one of the worst outbreaks of COVID in the US, and we had to and our teams had to work around the clock identifying doctors who could go to those those areas that were really getting hit hard. And we just had to fly just an abundance of doctors over there to to go and see those patients. And you know, it's what we do day in and day out. It's very fast paced. That that's that's almost an understatement, but it is. You never know what what each day is going to bring. Yeah, no, that's for sure, And that's an interesting part of the I think why I got into staffing way way back in the early days of my career. One of the things I loved about it was, like you said, it's never the two days are never the same. The other thing, though, I think is important for the listeners to know too, is while it is fast paced and we could get a call that says, hey, we need providers in a certain area due to a surge for COVID, and during COVID it was interesting a lot of the normal credential ing and privileging UM criteria was was lowered just due to the severe demand. But it is a long process in the same token, So I think many people listening may have been served by a locum tenant and not even know it. But one of the things that I is important for them to understand is there is a process by which every physician must go through before they can actually practice at a hospital or health care facility UM. In the industry, we call that privileging, which is each hospital has its own by laws and the regulations of which they have to be met in order for or criteria that have to be met for a physician to actually work at that hospital. And that process can take thirty at best sixty to ninety days before all of the background and the medical records and case logs and UM academic verifications and board certifications and d E a drug is surgery. All of those things are checked UM and validated most times double before the physician actually can set foot in the hospital. So I think when people hear of Locum ten and sometimes in...

...the past the perception was, well, it's or or it's just attempt and that, and it kind of implied lower quality. But that's that's definitely a misnomer because these people, these providers are really well vetted before they ever set foot into or or or see a patient. Yeah, and oftentimes a lot of these doctors that's a really good point. But some of them have been practicing for you know, forty fifty years and they've decided that they want to take a step back, not not practice as often and just kind of build their own schedule. And they have got so many years of experience and instead of them going out of the workforce entirely, they just begin to to do local tenants work on the side. But they are all ten contractors, so they are able to to come and go as they please and work across the country and whatever capacity they want. But you there are some phenomenal doctors out there, and um, we get the honor to work with with many of them every single day. Yeah, I love the story. Right, we have the doctors who live in the RVs and they drive to an area and they'll work a few weeks and explore the area for a few weeks and then they sometimes they'll move on to the next place, or do six months one place, six months another place. UM. In a in a prior life, we had doctors who would take a helicopter down into the Grand Canyon to serve the the supe I think it was a Supie Indians, uh tribe down at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And if he didn't fly down there that day or any day, they didn't have any real physician capability down at the where the tribe headquarters was. So there are some very uh, there are some very interesting career choices that the local tenants of providers can can make this for themselves if they want to. It's really interesting it does. It affords them the opportunity to travel and bring their families. I couldn't imagine if I were able to do what I do but go anywhere in the country to do it and just go and you know, spend time at all these different um, all these different companies doing what I do now, you know, but just bouncing around and getting to see different parts of the country and um, you know, you're living out of hotel rooms and that that can be tough, but it's still it doesn't It gives you that variety. And I think a lot of people who are doing locum tenants they have an entrepreneurial spirit about them and they really enjoy kind of creating their own schedule and and kind of just building their own life. Um, did I tell you Ted that recently? Uh, one of a member of my team, Will, his mother unfortunately was suffering stroke systems symptoms, so had to go to a hospital here in Atlanta and wound up being seen by one of the neurologists that our team had put to work there. So she was working as a locum tenants doctor at that hospital at the same time. His mother went to be seen...

...and they in conversation they kind of deduced who it was and and she of course knew us, and it was just such a wild situation, but you know, she essentially saved his his mom's life, and it's it's really remarkable to know that again there these locum tenants doctors, they're they're angels among us. Yeah. Well, first questions, and how's Will's mom doing. She is doing very well. She's made a full recovery. Everything is okay. Oh, well, that's the best part of that story. But yeah, no, yeah, I mean we've we hear this time and time again of people who go in um and find that out later and are you know, but just you know, the stories we hear are just amazing and um, you know, we could probably do this is what we're trying to highlight in the heroes of healthcare, and we have to we have to continue to highlight some more of those stories. Um. But locum tenants industry is not without some of its bumps and things that are going on. And I know that we have ad uh. We are a member of an organization called NALTO the National Association of Locum Tenants Organizations and they are kind of the corporate um group that overseas policies and procedures and provides those members with a code of conduct and how we work together, and it provides just a ton of wealth. But they also look at, like most of these organizations at the at the legislative things that are going on in the market. So, Olivia, you're becoming our resident expert in this whole area, But why don't you tell the listeners first about what's kind of going on that's causing some of this legislative turmoil. Yeah, so I have been kept abreast of this. So I mentioned earlier that these locum tenants doctors, they are contractors. There ten ninety nine contractors. So ten N is not W two. You are not working for an employer. You are your own boss. You are received a wage for every single hour you work, and then you are responsible for paying your own insurance. Through out of that, you're responsible for securing your own um. You're are for securing your own insurance, paying your own taxes. You are you know, working without an employer essentially. So we of course are the agency, and we're the agent that helps pair you with a job. But you do not work for us. We are not your boss. We're you know, we're not doctors. We're not going around trying to to tell a doctor, you know, what they're doing right clinically and what they're doing wrong. So I provide no medical oversight exactly exactly, So that's not what we're doing. We're just helping Jerry McGuire basically opportunities for them um and and these doctors, that's the majority of the physicians we work with. That's how they want it to be they choose to be ten nine contractors UM. They really oftentimes can't b W two because they might be W two already somewhere else, and...

...they just do this on the side and then their free time. It's a way to earn extra income or just continue to help because so many of them have that servant's heart. Unfortunately, what's happening in our industry right now is that ten ninety nine contractors um and and this is the government is trying to help, but oftentimes government is trying to shift where ten ninety nine contractors don't exist. Uh. This is really for the gig economy. And think of you know uber and lift drivers for example, they are to ninety nine contractors. But oftentimes it would be better served to them and they would be in a much better place if they could be W two because then they could have access to health insurance and their taxes would be taken out as they should. And as states are continuing to pass laws that are helping ten ninety nine contractors, they are hurting others like the physicians. So we've been dealing with that. We've been I recently got back from d C where I had the opportunity to to go and meet with a ton of different offices and kind of explained to them what local tenants is and how valuable it is. And you know, these physicians UH are want they want to be to ninety nine. They don't want to be W two. They want to be able to come and go as they please and you know, work as they want to work without an employer. UM. But some of these laws are preventing them from being able to do that. And that's something that we're trying to spread awareness of and and try to get a bill passed that would UM safeguard safeguard them and to codify them as to ninety nine. Well, and I think sometimes we've talked about this is it's sometimes UM see what do they call it? The unintended consequences? Like I think in California, big part of this law that was put into effect was UM against the you know or not against, but in order to try to put some controls around the uber and lift drivers that were all independent contractors. Right the ten ninety nine in W two right there, those are the tax forms, that's where those terms come from. UH. But that day, we're trying to get rid of the nine uber drivers and lift and they UM and as a part of that chance to kind of throw that net, they pulled in the advanced practitioners UH, as part of that got pulled in and which has in some ways really put a crimp in the flow. As we're all talking about supply chain these days, there is a human supply chain in some cases where UM some of those providers for UM, the advanced practitioners do not want to work in California anymore because they want to work as a independent and not as a W two. So it's kind of hurt California and some of their availability for the best care. So those are you know, those are some of the implications that have come across us...

...with this not always targeted at our industry, but kind of swept in as part of a part of another legis another legislative piece that that was going on exactly, and we actually have all come together so now to is a really great association. It's it's interesting because there are I think eighty six different companies in NATO that do exactly what we do, and we're all competitors. We're all competitors. We all want to to put more doctors to work, and we all want to win at the end of the day. But twice a year we do come together and we talk about the industry and we talk about how we can make things better and just make sure we're all abiding by the same mythical guidelines. But now to is really spearheaded this uh, this movement of us trying to get a bill passed that would again just ensure that that doctors can remain to ninety nine contractors and bills like the one that was passed in California won't be passed across the country. And we do have a bill that has been written and we recently received bipartisan support on it, So we are trying to get that moved up the chain. But as you know in government, things can take some time. We might need to unfortunately, there might need to be a little bit more money uh and involved in order for it to to really get noticed. But we are doing everything we can to to try to come together as an industry and and try to move this thing along. Yeah, so just I'm curious just talk a little bit more about that. I know recently got a chance to be with part of the n ALTO team that went to d C up to the up to Washington to talk about this bill. Tell me tell us a little bit. What was that experience, Like, who did you meet with, what were you discussing, and kind of what was the purpose of meeting with the with the big wigs up there. Now, It is really great. We were partnered with the lobbying firm here in Atlanta, and they that's what they do. They helped advocate and and they help lobby different agendas, um and and of course try to get bills passed and try to get bills written and for for different companies and organizations that that have something that they, you know, they feel passionate about and feel should change. But we they helped set up around I think it was like twenty five different meetings with different congress members as well as UH Senate representatives, and we were it was like clockwork. I mean it was two days, it was. It was so busy, but we had meetings scheduled every twenty minutes with different offices, and we were just walking all around the capital to these different offices and sitting down with either their health policy staffers or the congressional member themselves and just speaking with them about educating them on what locum tenants is and how many doctors are are in their state currently working as locum tenants, how many patients they're seeing, and and just letting them know that that we're there to try to again get this bill passed that will make sure that these doctors can continue doing what they what they have chosen to do is a you know, rear or in their free time, and ensure that...

...these patients in their in their districts and then their states can continue to be seen. So I used to live not far outside of d C, and I actually worked in d C for a while, and there's always an awesomeness to that city to me. Uh, you know, when you see the monuments and you see the White House, and you see the Capitol and everything. So walking through the Capitol and going to meet with these people that must have been pretty cool. It was incredible. I will say I learned within the first half mile of walking through the capital that wearing heels was a very bad idea. And we were meeting with one of the staffers and we were in this big, beautiful room that they would typically have, you know, like almost have a jury session in our and our call court in and I was trying to subtly change out of my high heels into my flats underneath the table without anyone noticing. Um, but we it was. It was a remarkable experience. I think that on day one in the Capitol alone, we walk it's like three and a half miles. Wow, just because you're going to so many different offices and and it was it was pretty wild. That's big. Well, that's that's I mean, what a great experience and obviously great work. And when you're in those meetings, do you get any sort of feedback or is it just kind of fact gathering. Do they just listening and saying, okay, we hear you, or do you do you get any sort of feedback out of it or do you walk out going well, I don't really know how that went. You do feel you know how it went when you're leaving, I will say. The big thing is, again, most people don't know what local tenants is, and they don't understand that there are so many doctors in their states that are working as this and are seeing patients just like the story I told you about Will's mom. But some of the offices, depending on the Democratic Party it, you know, we went into some um, excuse me, depending on the political party. We went into some Democratic offices that because this is the bill that is currently written, it's actually sponsored by the Republican side right now and by a Republican member of of of Senate um, so it really needed to have a democratic sponsor as well in order for it to to be bipartisan. When we were in d C, we only had the Republican side. So we went to meet with these Democratic offices and they thought it was a great bill and they really believed in what we were doing, but they didn't want to be first to sponsor. So they would tell us, we think this is great, and as soon as you have a Democratic sponsor, come back to us, right, not me, but you have somebody else, I'll get behind it, yep, yep. And and then they would they would give us guidance to that. You know, listen, this is uh this this is more one of those proactive bills. This is not something that's on fire right now and we have things that might be more important. Isn't that a shame? I mean, I know that's the reality of it. And when the house is on fire, you do have to attend to that first obviously, but you...

...know, don't why can't we do some proactive things in the same time and move the thing forward. So that's great though, what a what an awesome experience for you guys and for and for NALTO. Um any other updates. I know you just came in, uh literally this week from the fall fly in which was in Denver and the NALTO thing. Did they give a little bit of an update and is there any real next steps? And you know you made a comment I'd love you to touch upon two about the money, you know, and how expensive to do you think a bill is just time and effort, but there's money behind it, you know, that's an interesting question. NATO. The conference itself was really incredible, and like I said, that's one of the two times a year that we all get to come together as competitors and we get to talk about the industry and just how to make just our industry better and make sure that the we're serving, we're helping ensure that as many patients as possible can get seen across the country. And as far as the money component, that was pretty interesting to me because we did receive some comments while we were in Congress that all right, that we were meeting, while we were meeting with these staffers that if if we could just maybe put a little money out there, that would definitely help the bill get passed. You know, maybe if we could get some help with some fundraising efforts at different offices, and they would make sure that our bill got pushed at the top of the line. So it's funny how you know different agendas can potentially be pushed by fundraising efforts. I don't think I'm entirely surprised by that, but it was wild to hear it be said. And and I think you said the lobbyist organizations were there with you at those meetings. Is that right? They were? And I guess I guess did they share with you? Did they say that's usually pretty common? And I guess my biggest question was is that what they say to everybody? Or does that actually move the needle? The only time will tell, But they did make it sound like that that is what pushes the needle for it, especially if you you have a bill that's a little bit more proactive in nature, that's that's not as reactive. If we would have had this bill written and drafted during COVID whenever things were really you know, just kind of hitting the fan. I think that it would have been a little bit different. But now that the dust is settled a little bit, it's not as important again. And the value of contractors as it relates to doctors, it's just not as as big of a topic right now. Yeah, And and and if I correct me if I'm wrong with the timing, but I don't know that these bills at the surge of COVID were really um, not the bills, I'm sorry, the laws about restricting or things like that was really had been passed. Yet didn't that happen during the whole COVID thing, So they kind of ran at the same time. Yeah, yeah, And and they were kind of...

...at the same time, And I think that it just wasn't really looked at. Again, we haven't spread enough awareness. People don't know what locum tenants doctors are, who they are, and it's it's our opportunity to really shed that light and let people know, you know, how valuable these doctors are and and how many patients wouldn't be seen if if it weren't for these doctors. Do you recall the most recent number for our company like how many patients were seen in the month of August by locum tenants doctors? Oh, just for our company. I don't remember what the August was, but I know we were well over, well over and pushing towards two million patients served for the year. Isn't that unbelievable. It's a big number. It is a big number. Do you have any stories that that resonate with you for some of what our locum tenants doctors have done? Um, you know, I mean one of the ones that always just comes to mind, you kind of talked about. But I remember or a woman who had to take her husband into hospital for emergency, an emergency procedure. I don't remember exactly what it was, and I remember her telling me she was sitting in the lobby and there was a sign in the lobby that says, many of our physicians are independent locum tenant physicians providing services here at the hospital, and somewhat talking about that they were not employees of the hospital and that that was a positive because they didn't serve you know, it's kind of like you can't serve two masters. Do I serve the best interests of the patient, or do I serve what the hospital who's trying to make money or trying to keep costs at a certain level. Uh, and follow what they want. Um. And I think that she said when she first read that, she was a little concerned because again the perception was locum tenants kind of independent. You know, you know, how do I know that they're the best of the best, And as you said yesterday, they are in many cases they are the best of the best. We've just chose to work their career this way. And her but her experience was very positive like yours. She said, she got I loved the doctor that helped for her husband. He got right to the root cause they got everything fixed and it was a positive outcome as well. And she said she felt, you know very much now educated is exactly what that was. But um that obviously it worked really well. And I do believe I think Minnesota is one of the states where, um, the law is you cannot be and don't quote me on this, I could be wrong, but it's one of the states the physicians in a hospital cannot be employees of the hospital. It's actually the law due to the fact of that conflict of interest. And that's why I think we see very often it's a large physician practice that's working within a hospital, and that gives them that independence so that there is no conflict of interest of do I serve the do I serve the...

...hospital of employs me? Or do I serve the patient care? And obviously we always wanted to be patient first. Yeah, it's that's I didn't realize that for the state of Minnesota. And you're right, I'm sure there are other states that are are of similar fashion. But did you know about local tenants prior to moving into healthcare UM in your early staffing days. No, it's that's actually a good question. So I I've worked in I've worked in just about every sub tear or sub sub industry under temporary staffing. So I've worked in light industrial, clerical, I engineering, UM. And I always knew of healthcare. I always knew was a big segment, but I didn't realize how segmented within the healthcare umbrella that it can be. Where it's allied nursing, it's travel nursing, it's physical therapists, it's straight up nurses, it's locum tenants or you know, physician and you know all those kind of different groups that fall in under healthcare. And the other piece two is as we talked about a little earlier, is about the credentialing aspect of it. So when I, for example, when I worked in i T, if somebody said I need a Java developer, I could send them over some resumes, they would review them and say to me, okay, great, and they could be working literally the next Monday after an interview or review of their resume. UM. You know, as we talked about look um tenants, I was kind of like, wait a minute, we gotta wait ninety days to put this person in so orders that Jackson Cooker is receiving today, um, at the in September and October, a lot of times those doctors are not going to be able to be on site at best case December and probably more January February. So it's been a very interestingt dynamic to work with that, that lag, that of post what we call booking when they say yes, we want this provider to think that they can't go to work the next day is unless there's some emergency privileging done, which we we saw heavily in COVID and we see it occasionally here. UM it's just that's just the nature of the business, which I guess in a way is good because you want to ensure that that those credentials are legit and that the person who's who's giving life giving care is who they said they were, and that they're very well vetted and clear to do the work. Yeah, I mean, it's still a representation of the hospital. At the end of the day, malpractice cases can still arise, just like anything else. I mean, these doctors are still being interviewed and fully vetted. They are interviewing them and vetting them as if they were a permanent staff member. So they don't take these hospitals do not take the interview process lightly when it comes to local tenants physicians. I think sometimes they even look at them even more more harshly because they know that it's it's just going to be for a temporary fill and they don't want they don't you know, they don't want to put their patients at risk, which...

...they shouldn't. Yeah. No, I we met with a head chief medical officer from a hospital and um he wanted to be educated on Locum's and he said, tell me because he said my perception, he said, and I'm a little old school, and he said, but my perception was locums were kind of the second tier doctors, and we had to go through the same thing. We just kind of talked about to demonstrate to him that that's really not the case. And we started showing him some of the credentials of some of the UH doctors and um who we have in our database who go to work for us. And he was he was very impressed. And obviously, um it was something he said that they would not consider normally at their hospital, but now they were going to be more open to it when they saw understood a little bit better. So so um, so as we kind of wrap up and we we said, oh, this will be a short episode, but nothing's ever a short episode with you, and this is and it's like, this is something we're so passionate about, right, please indulge us. As we got we were able to talk passionately about something we do every day. But um, you know, we do know we are changing lives, we do know we're impacting communities. Um, it's a big part of who we are, which is to provide quality, you know, to provide care. Um, we believe everybody deserves quality care and so if we can bring that, that's a big part of who Jackson's about. And you know you asked me the question about how many patients served. That's something we track because that's why we're here, you know. It's uh, that's our purpose and it's our mission. Um and as we we just recently came out with our new rebrand and we're talking about UM positive purposeful relationships and positive outcomes and that's what we are really striving to do here. So UM excited about that. Any last thoughts on the NALTO information or anything you feel like we didn't cover, No, I'm just glad that we got to talk a little bit more about this and I think it will resonate especial as we have additional locum tenants doctors who are on the show and and then different hospitals. How we know them is because you know, one of our doctors is likely served there. So I think that it's it's definitely going to help bridge the gap and answer some questions. Yeah, absolutely, So, well, thanks for for being awesome co host and you do such an awesome job and make the show what it is. And we just thank all our listeners for for being a part of it too, and we hope to keep bringing you guys. Um these these heroic stories of people who are just providing some really good UM services out in the community and often selflessly, as we like to say too. So UM, thank you Olivia, no, and thank you Ted. I often get to write on your coat tails with this podcast, but I absolutely love it and it is I love listening to all the episodes. There have been some really really awesome, wonderful ones that you've done recently, and the Internet like that. They're also fascinating. Um. So there's there's a lot...

...of really incredible heroes out there. Yeah, there are lots of stories to be told. So thanks again for joining us, everybody, and we'll see you soon. Hi. You've been listening to Heroes of Healthcare For more, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player, or visit us at Heroes of Healthcare podcast dot com.

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