Heroes of Healthcare
Heroes of Healthcare

Episode · 1 month ago

Embracing Authentic Healthcare Leadership

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Being a leader in healthcare is not for the faint of heart. It requires grit and determination, and unlike many jobs, it doesn’t stop at 5 o’clock.

That’s why today’s guest, John Couris , President and CEO of Tampa General Hospital , believes that healthcare leadership is not just a job or a career—it’s a vocation.

In this episode, John talks about his journey in becoming a healthcare leader, and why the authentic leadership model is the most sustainable way to improve your organization.

We discuss:

  • The dedication it takes to be a successful leader in healthcare
  • The difficult decisions his team faced during the pandemic
  • Leading with authenticity, transparency, vulnerability, and kindness
  • Seeking out constructive criticism from staff

To hear this interview and more like it, subscribe to Heroes of Healthcare on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Heroes of Healthcare in your favorite podcast player.

When you start to create psychologicalsafety, you start to create an environment where people can reallyenervate and take risk and collaborate. You were listening to heroes of healthcare. The podcast that highlights bold selfless professionals in the healthcare industry focused on transforming lives in their communities. Let's getinto the show. Welcome to you. Today's episode of hereis of Health. Here we have a very special guest, CEO of Tapa GeneralHospital, John Chorus, even though not self proclaimed John is a visionaryleader dedicated to driving a culture of innovation and transformationalleadership. He is the recipient of multiple awards, including being namedto Florida Trans Four to five hundred list of most influential businessleaders in the state of Florida, as well as influence one hundred the listof the most influential people in Florida, politics seeing the GeneralHospital has almost ten thousand team members, so we er honor John, took timeout of his very busy schedule to chat with us without further rede. Welcometo the show John It's great to be here thanks for having me, of course, andone of the things that our listeners I know would love to hear is to reallyunderstand what got you into the health care field to begin with. So could youstart by letting US know that sure you know there were a couple things thatreally intrigued me about getting into health care. The first was sort of themission of health care and sort of the idea in the notion that the industry isfocused on helping others. The other reason I was really interested inhealth cares because some call health care. The most complex business in theworld were one of the most complex businesses in the world, and I love thecomplexity of health care and I love the nuances of health care, and so whenyou couple that with helping people helping a community helping society tostay healthy and well, and then you connect that to this idea and notionthat it's complex, that it's highly nuanced, that it's it's extremelytechnical, it just sort of sinks up with the things that I enjoy most andso that's. What really kind of kind got me excited about the health careindustry, and I I got into health care. I mean I got recruited right out ofcollege. You know right out of Boston University. I got recruited byMassachusetts General Hospital, and I never look back after that. Well andand with the complexities of help care. I joined healthcare for a similarreason and you never really know what the next day is going to bring and OYean. You certainly have to be a servant leader or just someone willingto help help others in order to be in this industry and really be successful.So I can, I can understand that, and it certainly resonates being the CEO nowof Tam the general. What do you love about that role and the Tampa generalcommunity? Well, look you know, I started you know. What do I love beingyou know about the role of being CEO. I've got to go back a little bit andkind of just give, maybe a one minute sort of explanation of myjourney and health care, which will contextualize why I love doing what I'mdoing if that makes sense a thin. You know I started working in a nursinghome through college. In early on in my career is an orderly. You know we callthem patient transporters now back in the day, they were orderlies because wedid all sorts of things we stopt supply shells we transported patients, wesupported nursing. We did all sorts of things in our you know in the industryand again I was just attracted to the mission of what health care is allabout, so I started right on the ground level right as an entry level person,and I work my way up right. I worked my...

...way up and through the entire industry,from the very entry level roles that I just described to the role that I am intoday and I've worked in every other type of capacity in between being aortal to being the to being the CEO and I've always wanted to do what I'm doingtoday and that's not common. Actually, you know a lot of stories. You hear youhear people talking about the two or three different career changes, they'vemade to get to the place that they're at I knew early on in my career and againit was just lucky. It was. I knew early on what I wanted to do. I knew early onwhat I was attracted to, and I knew I wanted to be a leader of anorganization like Gh and I'm actually doing exactly what I said out to do inmy career, and so what attracts me to being a CEO and being a leader of anorganization like Gh is the notion of caring for others. I am very team member centric, so Istart every day. Thinking about my people. Thinking about what I need todo for the people that care for our patients, whether t be our nurses orour doctors or allied health professionals, all of our team members,so that gets I enjoy that. That's something that excites me in the rolethat I'm in I enjoy the strategy elements of my work, setting of vision,setting a plan working with teams to execute on the vision and plan, seeingthe outcomes of the of the vision and plan and what's also sort ofinteresting, is you know, CEOS come up through different tracks. They eithercome up through finance. They come up through strategy. They come up throughoperations. I came up through operations, so there is an element ofwhat I do. That's operational that I really do enjoy. Sometimes I joke withmy c o O, and I say yes, she drew the the short Straw because I came upthrough operations. I was a coo in a past life earlier in my career, and soI enjoy you know the operational elements of a hospital and a healthsystem, and so that's also something that I enjoy. You know participating it,and so, when you take strategy and vision, caring for the people that I'mresponsible leading and you tie that into sort of the complexities of thework that we do, that just really excites me. It's exciting! It's youknow, I've, never a joke, and it just sounds a little cliche. You know peoplethat I've never worked a day in my life, because I love my job and I love mycareer and I love what I'm doing well. The truth of the matter is, I do lovewhat I'm doing and I'm doing exactly what I set out to do. I have had roughdays like everybody right, but I'm really doing what I've always wanted todo and what I've trained for. So I'm I just you know I just enjoy the work andtruthfully I get up every single morning excited to come to th, becauset gh is a wonderful organization with a strong culture and it's got wonderfulpeople in it, people that are caring, people that are compassionate peoplethat are committed to the mission and vision of the institution and that it'sreally energizing, and so that those are some of the things that get meexcited. As CEO view organization. That's a great story to and thank youfor the the background about how you got in til you're, going even deeperthere, so porting your career as an as...

...an orderly. You really have devotedyour entire career to health here and seeing it at that level, I rememberbeing a candy driver in high school, so a similar not the same thing but butsimilar to you know really helping patience and delivering food and justmaking sure that they're cure for and when you see it from that Lin and younow being on the other side of things and working through. I'm sure thatchanges the way that that you lead others, because you have been at theground level before and you know whatever you're absolutely right. Youknow one of the things that I tell young administrators who want to dowhat I do or think they want to do. What I do is I ask him a very important questionand an not let me preface it by saying it's important to balance. You knowyour work with personal life and your work with staying, healthy and beinghappy, and you know the balance is important, but what I ask people is, asI say, because this is more like a vocation than it is like a job or acareer. I mean it's a vocation and and being a successful co or being asuccessful, quite frankly at submit to you being a successful leader in healthcare. It's not really a job where you can kind of turn off at five o'clock. It's more like an extension of who youare it's something that really requiresyour whole family to be committed to. You know my wife and my kids they'veall had to sacrifice right, because when you run- and you lead anorganization that literally operates twenty four hours a day, seven days aweek and never shuts off, you have to figure out a way to strike a balance, but it it's, but really it's anextension of who you are because it's not like something you cansay: Hey after five o'clocki. Don't call me that that wouldn't make you avery effective leader that wouldn't make you a world class leader in myopinion, and so you have to love what you're doing in health care, because ittruly is an extension of who you are it's something you're, always youalways have to be available for your team members to your physicians, foryour community for your patients, because it's the type of organizationthat you're running so truly loving and being committed to your profession is criticallyimportant. If you don't view the world that way, you may very well become a C.Do you probably won't be an effective co or the most effective CEO? You canbe if you create those artificial barriers. So loving what you're doingis critically important because it is an extension of who you are and itaffects your entire life and unfortunately you're fortunately,depending in your perspective. The organization needs that, because, likeI said this, wor Inor Health Care System Or Hospital never turns off,it's always on, and you always have to be available. That's great advice, andit's true. You mentioned that you're it's at home too, so it really is partof your it's part of your life and then just throw US Moses. It's part of yourchildren's lives and it's one of your wife's live. Do you think either of your kids willwant to go into health care from seeing what dad does every day? No, they willnot go into health care. My health care career has provided a great life for myfamily and continues to provide a great life for my family, but it has comewith a great deal of sacrifice, I'm available, like probably so many ofthe listeners, so I'm no different than probably most I'm available seven daysa week. Twenty four hours a day...

...that takes a toll on the family to adegree. Now you you figure out how to balance that, don't get me wrong. We goon vacations, we find balance no question, but they see how hard theirfather works. They see that, there's that it's sort of all the time they recognize the importance andsignificance of the role that I play for my community in my state and it's a lot. It's a lot this thisthis kind of role, this kind of profession, is not for the fat to hard. It's not.You have to have a lot of grit. You have to have a lot of determination.You have to have a lot of discipline and focus, and you just you have to becommitted. I look at myself as a student of the industry. I learned frompeople every day every day, I'm engaged in health care in the industry everyday, whether I'm reading studying learning from others engaging in what'sgoing on in the industry. It's something that's sort of very organicand dynamic, and I think they see that and at one level they see how happy Iam, but I also think they see how hard the work is, and it's just I don't see them going into my profession, because I think they've seen how hard the work isabsolutely and at the end of the day, that would help her another thing thatmakes it so special and what you're alluding to is a patient's life isbeing saved or someone's life is, is being saved because of the the role inthe work. That's being done, no matter what that role is or how small someonemight see it, there is someone it all comes together and the life is beingsaved because of that work. I've heard other health car leaders say over thepast two years, they've had to make decisions, they've never thought theywould have to make. Can you tell us if you don't mind, sharing what are someof the more difficult decisions you've had to make over the past couple ofyears during the pandemic? It's a great it's a great question. No question thelast nineteen months have been challenging, to say the least. You knowthe decisions that we've had to make have been difficult. You know some of them have beendifferent health, so, for example, when we, when we started to see a surge inCovin nineteen patients, converting units into coved units has been adifficult set of decisions, because we've had to sort of move around the portfolio ofclinical services that we provide a community a so we're lucky becausewe're a really large institution were one of the largest free standinginstitutions in the country. A thousand forty one beds were building well we'regoing to be twelve close, close to twelve hundred beds when we're donewith the first phase of our master facilities plan. So at the peak of thelast search, which is this, which was the Delta variant, we had two hundredand fifty eight coved patients in the hospital, and we had twelve coved units in the hospital very difficultdecisions to temporarily either close or move around or amend differentdepartments and units to build capacity for covin patients. Those were somereally difficult decisions. Now I'm happy to share with the audience wedidn't have to furlough pay people. We didn't have to lay anyone off it's amatter of fact. We doubled down on our team members and we provided all sortsof support for them from a psycho...

...social perspective. From a monetaryperspective, everyone had employment, everybody, but making decisions aroundhow we were going to manage the cohort of Covin nineteen patients wasdifficult and I was very challenging. We never ran out of ice. You beds, henever ran out of ventilators. We never ran out of the ability to provideheated high flow, which is sort of a modality, a step away from a ventilator.We did Max out on our emo a few times when we just ran out of capacity forEmo, but that never really affected patient care because we were able towork with other systems if we needed to, but we never found ourselves in that inthat situation. So we were really fortunate because we're so large thatyou know I listen around the country to other hospitals and other in otherstates that are smaller than us, and there are hospitals that are literallysaying I've. You know we've run out of ICU beds, we've never had. We never hadthat situation, but but in order to maintain flexibility and capacity forOvid nineteen patients, we've had to make difficult decisions aroundprograms that we had to temporarily discontinue in order to make capacityavailable to Covin nineteen patients. Those were a real, difficult set of of decisionsthat we were confronted with, and you know I mean if we did, we would neverthink about having to deal with something like that pre pandemic, butwe certainly were dealing with it. While we were in the surges of this ofthis pandemic, I mean that's probably a good example of some of the things Iwas confronted with. With my team, I will say a big shout out to my wholeteam and there's a laundry lists of people, but one of the key people wasmy Chief Operating Officer, Kelly Collin, who didn't has continued to doan extraordinarily good job at managing the response to Covin nineteen the dayto day moment a moment, tactical response to Covin nineteen. Ourpatients were always kept in safe environments. We had capacity, we hadequipment staff was very tight, very very tight, very stressed, but we'vebeen managing through it, but that those are some difficult days trying tofigure out. You know: Load balancing around patients, along with the noncovin patience because of the height of Ovid, I think about twenty. Eightpercent of our beds were filled with covin patients, but that means likeseventy percent of our of our beds, were filled with non coved patients. Soto to balance that was was real challenging. We did it we're continuingto do it. I will tell you that the volume of Covin patients, if sittinghere today, through this interview, we have seventy two patients in thehospital right now for Covin at the height we had two hundred and fiftyeight, so we you know balancing all of that.It's been real tricky and are your comin patient numbers continuing todecline? OVID numbers are continuing to decline, and so is the positivity rate.So at the height of this last surge in our community, the positivity rate waslike twenty percent and I think, even slightly north of twenty percent at itspeak today sitting here today with you and that's fine, I just looked at it acouple hours ago. I was on a call with somebody, and I was looking at it, forthem were at about nine and a half percent positivity rate, which is great, which is great, which is Great, I'msure it's it something that your staff and your community are all veryveryhappy about and happy to be able to...

...see a little bit of the light at theend of the time, a little bit of the light at the end of the tunnel. Youknow fingers cross that we don't deal with another variant and another search.That's that's kind of what we're all holding our breaths over right now, Ihope not, but it does sound like tacent what the what you've already put inplace prior to this really help to be prepared for this disaster or any otherdisaster that might strike. So I think that coming away from this, youknow now just how strong you are. You know it before, but now it's reallyevident. Well, you know it's a great, that's a great point Olivia, so some ofthe positives right, so we can get caught up in the negative for sure andquite frankly, I totally could understand how people could get caughtup in the negative, but we also have to look at what we've learned through thisand there's also some real positive, take aways and just a few to share withthe audience one. We've learned through this crisis that when we have to makequick decisions, men move fast and make quick changes. We can do it. We havethe capability of doing that of moving quickly, moving decisively. Makingchange happen quickly that that's that's powerful, that that's realpowerful we certainly are are stronger today than we were a year ago comingthrough this coved, meaning we hung together as a team. Now I'm notsuggesting that what we're doing is perfect. We all the entire industry hasstruggled changes. No one, no one could have ever fathomed orcontemplated what we've been going through over the last nineteen months. But as we come out of this, we are coming out stronger. We arecoming out more resilient. It doesn't necessarily maybe feel likethat right now, but we are, but we are because we'rehanging together we're getting through this together. The industry weretearing for people recovering, people were getting people back home to theirfamilies and that's powerful, and I think the doctors and the nursesand the respiratory therapists and everybody else involved in caring forthese patients need to remember this, that the vast majority of people thathave been hospitalized or leaving the hospital alive and going back to theirfamilies and over time resuming normal lives and that's because of the healthcare system and the excellence that the health care system represents acrossour country. So there is a lot to be learned through this on not a positive side as much as there is on sort oflike the like negative side right of likebecause a lot of times what you hear is sort of the negative right and don'tget me wrong. Our Team members are tired, they're even disenfranchised. They areworn out there a bit disillusioned and frustrated because of what's been goingon and by the way. Rightfully so, and and and the way I describe them istheir warriors- They are absolute warriors. We are blessed to have themen and women in this country caring for people with Covin, but at the same time we are learningsome really positive lessons through this and those can't be lost either,and we've got to look at it both ways that that's our challenge as we kind ofmove forward as we slowly transition.

Hopefully out of Covin, I mean everyonerealizes that Covin now is endemic in our society. It's not going anywhereand this notion of saying. Well, we have there's this new normal job. It'sthere is no, not normal. We we have to learn how to co exist and live side byside with Covin nineteen that that's our reality, that's our reality andthat's our challenge. That is definitely our challenge extremely wellsaid: shifting focus lightly. You mentionedat the beginning of this, the recording that one of the things that drove youto help here, as you love the complexities of it. You love that youwere always going to be learning something new and it is apparent thatyou are a a a learner. You're always going to be a learner. You recentlydecided to pursue your doctorate and business administration. Can you tellus a little bit about what made you decide to go into that route and addmore to your plane? Yeah thanks for the question. So so in about a week and ahalf, I will be defending my dissertation wrapping up my three and ahalf year journey and it's been awesome. It's been great, so I have beenpursuing my doctorate at the University of South Florida Momma College ofbusiness, and I it is management. It's focused onmanagement, science and Social Science, and I consider myself a lifelonglearner. I consider myself a student of the industry, so I'm constantlylearning from others. When I got here four years ago, I madeit very clear to the organization that I wanted to challenge the organizationand the people in the organization to develop themselves as professionals, sothey can grow and that we can evolve our corporate climate and ourorganizational culture and part of that journey is educationright and an education is so important for the obvious reasons. So what Ichallenge the organization, as I said, look for those that may not have yourbachelor's degree we're going to support you in getting the bachelor'sdegree for those that may not have a master's we're going to support you ingetting the masters for those of you who have a masters who want to pursue adoctoral program. We want to support that as well. I felt like I needed to lead by example,though, so, if I'm going to stand in front of an entire system of close toyou, know ten thousand people and challenge them to challenge themselves.I have to lead by example, and I also know that I have a lot to learnand I wanted to get into the management sciences side of my world, and I wantedto move from practitioner to scholar, and I wanted to learn what that meant,and I wanted to get on to that. I wanted to sort of start that journeyright, because I thought it would make me a better leader, and I, and mybelief was, is it was that the institution tg could benefit from theexperience that I myself went through right. So it's lead by example, developmyself because I'm a student of the industry and I believe in lifelonglearning, and I also thought that and believe my thesis was my organization-will be a will- be a better place because I will be developing myself andthat's the journey that I've been on. So my work for the last three and ahalf years has sent it around this notion of authentic leadership, and somy general hypothesis is that if you lead authentically with transparency,which is part of the authentic leadership model- and you lead withkindness and vulnerability, a few...

...things happen in your organization.Trust in your people go up. Engagement goes up and psychological safety andproofs, and then, when those things improve, your organizational results improvesoperationally clinically and strategically, and not only do theyimprove, but they improve in a sustainable reproducible way, and thatwas the last three years of my journey has been focused on that studying that from a management scienceperspective- and it's been wonderful experience forme, I mean it really has and what was born out of that, which is really kindof neat. Is this new model that we're calling the T, GH leadership model and what we're starting to teach all leaders? So we have about fourhundred leaders in the organization managers all the way up to my office, what we're going to be starting toteach every leader, it's the TG, H leadership model. So how do you leadwith authenticity, transparency, kindness and vulnerability? That is ourleadership model. My work is the impetus to the model and sort of thedriver behind it and it's. My work is backed up through management and social sciencethrough scientific rigor, and we don't have time today and I borethe audience getting into the nuances of it. But but I set up an experimentalgroup control groups. The research I did was approved by our IRBS, both ofthe university and hospital L. I mean this was a scientific experiment thatwe conducted over the last year of my three and a half year program in orderto explore this model and its impact on leadership. That's what I'll be defending onOctober, eighth and I'm excited about it. I mean all my work is now done now,I'm just studying for my actual oral presentation and then hopefully it getsaccepted I'll be done, and I will you know, have graduated basically theprogram. I'm really really excited about it and what's really neat aboutwhat the University of South Florida is done, is they take they've built out aprogram? That's a terminal degree I might add, and they take practitionerslike me and they teach us to be more scholarly. They partner us with scholars to helpthem learn more about the practitioner side of the world, so we can create something: That's morecontemporary for people to learn from across, not just the health careindustry, but all industries. It's been a wonderful experience, a wonderfulprogram and I'll end with this. For me, this is not the end. This is thebeginning and at the end of my dissertation, it'sa little hokey. But I have a quote that says this: Is this dissertation? Is Thematch that lights a thousand candles to begin a journey over the next five toten years of building out this model, longitudinally using science to changeclimate and to evolve culture in a sustainable reproducible way, andthat's the journey that we're on and then so? I'm I'm really in again. Icould go on and on but I'll stop here, but I'm really excited about the model.I'm excited about the work that we've...

...done and accomplished and I'd be happyone day to share it with you. It's I mean, of course, I find itfascinating. My other people might look at it and be bored to tears with it,but but it's significant and it works. Quite frankly, you know from a Ropractical perspective, it's a very effective model. It oundle a part of anincredible program. The fact that tg is not going to be able to enter into yourleadership program and the four hundred leaders there are going to be able tobenefit from your findings. That's remarkable, and I would be humble thatI would love to learn all about it. Beside the obviously, as you mentioned,we don't have time to share all of that right now, but I think that any leaderwho wouldn't want to learn this frame work and almost be given a blueprintfor how to leave this team successfully as well as help your team thrive andhelp them grow. They may not suited for leadership. So I think it's wonderfulthat that you're going down this path. That being said, can you give us someexamples of how to lead with hol or ability and kindness and how youcurrently instruct your teams to do this? Yeah sure sure? Absolutely it's agreat question. So so we'll focus just you know, vulnerability and kindness. Ithink so. I think often times people equatevulnerability with weakness and it's quite to the contrary. If you can trulyshow vulnerability, I think it's a sign of strength actually, because I meanjust think about it from a just from a from just purely a logical perspective.Right I mean if you can open yourself up, and you can sheer your idiosyncrasiesif you can admit mistakes if you can meet people where they are, and you can show a piece of yourselfthat sort of unfiltered that's powerful, that'stransformational, but that takes strength. It takes confidence right. SoI'll give you like a basic easy example of vulnerability. Okay, like super easy-and it happened to me and and it's a real easy one for the audience and someof the listers might say you know big deal that John did this, but I'm tryingto keep it real simple, because again we don't have hours to spend timetalking about this, but but this is an example of voler ability, a basic one,but it is a a real example of it. So one of my pet peeves is- and I don'thave a lot of them, but this is one of them is when the audio visual intoday's world doesn't work very well, because it's a real disruption whenyou're trying to communicate to a team. So this was pre pandemic. I've got fourhundred leaders in a room, I'm about to give a very important present ation onour New Vision. In Our strategic plan, I've got audio visual people that we'veoutsourced the work to in an auditorium that sits four hundred people and the audio visual doesn't work thatI now mind you they've tested it its work before the the the meeting andit's like Murphy's law comes into play. The stuff doesn't work, it becomes ahuge disruption and I get frustrated and I get a bit angry and I get fuckfussy about it and I, my chief of staff, who supports me, Icoacher like in front of the four hundred people not in a big way, but Ikind of get I snapped and snapped at her and said you know something to theeffective like are you kidding me like, like you have like days to do this andwe're still having problems, and now it's going to it's, taking like twentyminutes to fix and I've got to sit here...

...in twenty minutes and we're wastingthis kind of time. That kind of stuff- and I think most people on the phonecan relate to that and some might say. Well, that's not abig deal. John. I mean that stot stabbing. It's not fair to do tosomebody with four hundred people in the room and you're talking to you,chief of staff right and they and by the way they can hear it. You knowyou're, not yelling, it's not like yelling or anything. It's just. It'slike how I'm doing it right now, but that can be demoralizing right ifyou think about it, if you're, the chief of staff, WHO's working theirhearts up for you and it was a technology, flitch no fault of our own,so we fix the problem. We start the presentation and I get about twenty minutes into thepresentation. Maybe last doesn't matter and I stopped the meeting, and I saidyou know what I'm not feeling good about something I want to stop themeeting. I want to apologize to my chief of staff, so I invited to standup she's and we're close, we're close so she's. I said I her name. First Amesholly and I said Holly. I want to apologize to you openly in front offour hundred people. The technology glitch wasn't really your fault, youtested it, you retested it it didn't work, it happens. I kind of got fussy about it. I sort ofkind of coached you and talked about it with you in frontof the four hundred people, and that was wrong, and that was totally wrong. This is,and I said this is why it was wrong. You know you coach and private yourpraise in public, but I went beyond that and I went on to teach about theimportance of of you know we build people up to get the best out of them.We don't break them down, but I opened up to the group and apologized and thenspent a few minutes teaching about that out that that the whole coaching andthe importance of vulnerability well, that's an example of honorability. Ihad a handful of people come up to me not saying while that was great Johnbut saying you know, that's really interesting to watch you do that,because most people probably wouldn't have done what you did. They probablywouldn't even have noticed it and kept on rolling and that Chief of staffwould have felt bad and that's not good, and instead I opened up- and I said Iwas wrong and I apologized to holly in front of four hundred people. That'svulnerability. I've worked for a fair amount of CEOS in my life. I can't think of many I can think of afew, but I can't think of many that would open up a stop and apologize. Ican't why would I do that because we're alsoa learning organization? You have a learning moment and you're using yourself as theexample of maybe not of what not to do that's vulnerability. Folks, now it's a basic example, but it's anexample nonetheless, and that's what I mean about the the vulnerability andit's powerful, because when you do that as a leader, you start to create a safe environmentfor people to be who they are and- and that's really important, because whenpeople start to feel safe, real innovations happens in yourorganization when you create psychological safetyand there's plenty of research on this peer review and research. Everyone,when you start to create psychological safety, you start to create an environmentwhere people can really enervate and take risk and collaborate. So that'sthe power of under vulnerability. Now, kindness is in my mind my my definitionof it is simply meeting people where they are not necessarily where you want them tobe meet them wheret. They are...

...understand where they're coming fromand meet them there with an open mind and an open heart through this covinthrough Covin. I've used the words a lot, and I this may sound odd to somepeople and to some pep for the cynic. Listening to this, you may be shruggingyour shoulders, a roll in your eyes at this point, but this stuff really worksbecause we're human beings we're people and we have a. We deserve to be treatedwith respect and dignity and when you're kind, it's another wayof saying that you're treating somebody with some love and what's wrong with treating peoplewith some love and some people say well, there's no room for that in business. Why there's plenty of room for thatbusiness? We are all human beings. We deserve to be respected, we deserved,or to our dignity, to man be maintained. We are vulnerable. People were humankindness is powerful. Now, truthfully, I'm fifty four now ask yourself this. Are you the at fifty four you theversion of yourself when you were thirty or twenty five? If you ask me about vulnerability andkindness and love at twenty five or thirty, I would have thought you werecrazy, but through my lived experiences, both good and bad. I've learned thepower of love, kindness, vulnerability and now go back to my studies, just fora second I've applied social science management, science and GeneralScientific Rigor to what I'm talking to you about, and it works, because it'sbacked up by science in the management sciencesfield and in the social sciences field. So that's kind of the journey that I'mon. That's generally how I lead, we didn't really talk about Autentici, tyand transparency, which is fine, but we can come back to that another time oryou know we. We can do that some other time when we have more time, but Ihopefully that helps Olivia, because I think this is really powerful and I'd leave you with this leadersthat are listening to this. Ask yourself the following: Do you havepeople that work for you because they feel like they have to to earn a paycheck or because they want to because they are connected to you at aBissole el, because you're treating them with kindness, your showingvulnerability, your being othet and transparent and you're engaging them atmore of a kind of like an organic level. Ask yourself that, do you have peopleat work for you that feel like they have to because they're providing fortheir families or be they want to because you've engaged them, you've,captured them and you're part of them you're a team? And, if you're, honest with yourselves,you might be surprised with the answer that you get now that that waswonderful and I think that anyone listening was taking down notes as Iwas, and and they're going to try to incorporate some of this and to theirpractices moving forward. And one of the questions that I was going to ask.But I think you answered it is whether or not this was your leadership style prior. When you most got intoleadership- and it sounds like it may not have been- I mean it's a great question. Iappreciate I did kind of touch on it now when I started out young youngerI'll, never forget. Could I tell a...

...quick story, because my wife, my wife,is, is a great person. She's been great console to me and she's big support,and this is, I was still living in Boston. I was probably twenty. My late is, and I was just you know Iwas getting into leadership and I was excited about being a leader and Idon't know how we got on to this topic of leading and how do you want your?How do you? What kind of leader do you want to be, and this was kind of liketoning cheek? We were joking with each other and and I and she goes well whatkind of leader do you want we're talking about? Like you know, leadersthat are fared and leaders that are loved? We were just we kind of talkingabout the topic and we were joking and I sort of looked there and I said well.I want to be feared, not loved and she said well why I said because I thinkfear lasts longer than love and she said. Well, that's the stupidest blamething. I've ever heard. I now, if anybody's listening, that's fromMassachusetts or Boston Ere, you know that sometimes we use colorful words asadjectives. So I can't tell you what she asked that blank was, but you canonly imagine she said that's like dumb and she was right now. It took me sometime because, early on in my career, when I was a lot younger, I was hyper aggressive. I was a guy whobasically said you know, give me the ball coach and I'll. Get you the firstdown it's kind of football season. Now so I'll get you the first down or I'll,get you into the end zone. Now I may leave some carnage along the way, butI'll get that ball into the end. Zo I'll achieve the mission I'll achievethe goal, and we all know those types of people. We do okay. Well, I was sortof like that a little bit now. If I worked for you, you loved it becauseyou were like hey, give chorus that project he'll, get it done and he'llget it done pretty darn good they'll do a pretty good job at it, but he'll getit done, and I would I would I would always achieve the goal always butevery once in a while. You know people would say well, John, you achieve thegoal, but you left some carnage along the way you might want to rethink theway you're doing it so early on in my career I was much more rigid and whatI'm talking to you about probably wasn't in the paradigm that Iwas living in. It wasn't in my construct, but you evolve as a leaderright. It goes back to lifelong learning, you're, constantly learningfrom people you're learning from people you want toemulate and you're learning for people that you don't want to emulate, and soI have over decades. I have become the leader that I am today and I would tellyou and I'm not suggesting by the way that the leader I am today is perfectand if anybody on the pot it listening to this things, they're perfect,they're, crazy. We all have our IDIOSYNCRASIES. We all come to workwith our IDIOSYNCRASIES, but that's kind of part of the fun right, but I've learned a lot through this journey. So No, Iwasn't the leader I am today when I was twenty five and thirty and thirty five.It wasn't until I got into my early s that I started this self. This ex selfexploration around leading and I'll tell you. You know it'sinteresting what I guess. What really started me to think about it is in apast life. I had a job I was at I you know. I went from Massachusetts GeneralHospital to the Bake, her health system in Tampa to Jupiter Medical Center backto tth and Tampa, as I wanted to get...

...back to academics and get back to doingwhat I'm doing today and it fit beautifully with where I was in mycareer and what I wanted to achieve in my in my career. But when I think backyou know I was when I was first in Tampa. I had a couple of situationswhere I was treated by a by by by a president of a division poorly and I really poorly quite frankly- andI never lost that feeling on how demoralized I felt as as an executive. Really I mean itwas not good, and I remember calling up to my old leaders in Boston to help methrough this, because I was struggling and one of my mentors said to me: Don'tlose this feeling right now, John, like don't lose it like. Here are the things you can do toget through it, but don't lose this, because what you want to do is you wantto. You can learn just as much and sometimes more from the people youdon't want to be like than from the people you want to be like, but don't lose this feeling of of howyou feel right now and make a promise to yourself that you won't make anyperson you lead, feel the way you're leady to feel the way you're feelingright now. Does that make sense, and so it is andI'm fifty four now that was probably fifteen years ago, if not longer. Istill have these. I know the situations I was in. I know that the environmentand the topics we talked about. I have the person vividly in my mind and I'venever lost that feeling, and I made a promise to myself that I would nevermake another individual feelo the way that I was made to be to feel it was transformational for me thatstarted me on this journey to be a very different leader than I was when I wastwenty five, thirty and thirty five. Compared to what I am today. It's justkind of the journey that I went on and look there's ups and downs to thatjourney. Right I mean not everybody you're going to have good days, you'regoing to have bad days like you sort of evolve as a leader. So that's a littlebit of how you know what my journey look like likeI said it's not perfect, there's lots of right ways to go after this kind ofstuff. This is just kind of my lived experience and how I became the leaderI am today and quite frankly, folks it seems to work because results are there.People are engaged have a lot of executives that have followed me fromcompany to company system to system I mean I've got people that have workingfor me today at ten, the general that have worked with me for twenty twentyfive years. So I mean it does work, I'm far from perfect, but no one is perfectright. So we're all on this, this kind of journey together. Hopefully thathelps it does and it sounds like we all need to do a little self reflectionright now and just ask ourselves you know: Have we made people feel in a waythat would demoralize and or have we felt that way ourselves and you'reright and hold on to it? That is this wonderful advice. In addition, youmentioned an a recall that you really seek out constructive criticism fromyour staff and I think that that also requires a lot of vulnerability,because we don't like being told things that we're doing poorly, but it soundslike that is another sure fire way to get you on the path of a betteringyourself as a leader or even not in leadership. How do you seek outconstructive criticism from your team? Well, you have to create a safeenvironment. It's not always easy for the team to do it to the boss, but Iactually encourage it like I will say...

...it's. This is the time for you to coachup. This is the time for you to provide constructive criticism. I'll give youan example. If that helps, this was early on a TG. We were looking at anaccountable care organization and I really wanted to go with this. Onegroup and I was really endavoured with the Group- and I, like the CEO of thegroup, and I kind of like the vision and and my team was spending a lot oftime with their group. They were also comparing it and contrasting it toanother group and the other group fit more along the lines of what weneeded to do and I kept pushing them towards this other group and they keptgoing in the other direction. They finally came to me and they saidJohn you're, the boss, that we can do whatyou want, but here's why this is you're about tomake the wrong decision they coached me up. They were direct, they werespecific, they were candid and that you know what I said at theend and I'm making a very long story short. They said you know what guysyou're a hundred percent right. I was about to make the wrong decision we'regoing in your direction. That is an example of allowing your team to be insafe space to coach. You up now, if you do that, a lot people start to believe it and start tonaturally do it I'll give you one other quick example e. So you know we're abig place. We have our construction companies that we typically use. I'm inthe process of introducing some new construction companies were in ameeting, and I've got my construction team. there. I've got a newconstruction company general contractor there they're presenting who they arethey presenting why they would be a good group to maybe work with and myguys that work for me were kind of struggling with that. So in the meeting I pushed pretty hardin the meeting, because I didn't like what my guys were doing and what theywere saying right or wrong. I was feeling like they weren't beingrespectful of the general contractor. I got a little bit angry and a little bitfussy about it. No coaching or anything went on, but I was pushing right and Iwas making my guys feel uncomfortable the head guy in particular anywaymeeting ends. We agree that the two construction groups are going to gettogether and spend more time to learn each other, and this wasn't to go do ajob. This was just a get him on the list. So when jobs came up, they wouldbe considered to be a general contractor because, like all healthsystems, we have a open process on URF process. We got a whole sort of verytransparent process around that, but that aftternoon, my director cameto me young guy, great guy, great guy to absolutely upand come Er. SMART, well, educated, really good guy. He comes into myoffice and he says I'm going to test what you've been teaching us. You'vetalked a lot about coaching up, I'm going to test it and I'm veryuncomfortable right now, because I've never done this, I'm in the CEO'soffice and am about to tell you how I feel and I'm about to tell you why. Ithink what you did was not right. So he comes into my office, I'm in my officeall pointing over to my sitting area here around and, I said sure fire away,so he spends like twenty minutes telling me how he feels what he thinks I did wrong and how Icould have done it differently. I said I really appreciate that I'm like thatis awesome, so I'm immediately...

...connected to him now in a in a way that I'm not connected to alot like directors. Normally, I don't work with a lot of directors thisdirector and I get very close because he does something that endears me tohim right. I like I just I have this connection because in my mind I'mthinking this is exactly what I want. This is exactly the type of culture Iwant and he's doing it a very respectful, constructive, healthy wayright, so he gets done. I listen to him. I asked some clarifying questions. Ispend time understanding then I said to him: Do you mind now? If I share withyou how I felt and I'm now given the opportunity to tell him how I felt andhow I think he could have behaved differently and what he could have done differently now, out of that, we came to an agreement and anunderstanding that I could have done a few things differently. He could have done a few thingsdifferently, but together we're going to walk down a path on this opening upthe the contract list to more contractors in a very different way,but allow him and his team to do the work that they would do, and it wasgreat Olivia. It was wonderful. Here's a director so he's like four levelsaway from me. If you think about it, because it because in my world I haveme, I have vps some senior VPS, VPS and directors, that's powerful right andfor the audience, and particularly the leaders that are listening to this. Ask Yourself. If you really create anenvironment like that, I mean honestly, I mean you got to have like a like,really ask that question and I, by the way, don't run out and ask your people.If you do it because nine times out of ten everybody he's going to go yep youdo it Yep Huh you do it you're great you're, great you great! You can't doit like that. You got to be more organic, it's got to be more natural.It's it's got to be. You know what I'm talking, but that's the type oforganization. In my opinion, you have to create, because when you createthese safe environments to do what I'm describing to you incredible thingshappen in your organization, incredible things happen and, and I've got example after example, after example ofrail, real results that have come from creating anenvironment like I just described so, hopefully that's helpful. I think thatthe proof is in the data and, as you mentioned, that there's a lot ofscientific research that is back everything you're saying the resultsthat are back. I know that I wish that we had more time to talk about, reading,authentically and leading with transparency, so we are going to haveto make sure at the end of this, that you tell all the listeners how we cancontinue to follow you and hear about things that you're putting out and intothe world if we're not a part of the TV team, so that we can also benefit fromit. I am also a firm believer that people don't leave jobs. They usually leave leaders,so it's a bat that you have so many leaders that are following you is. I isalso just evident that you know you're leading the way that people are reallyresponding well to and they want to be in that environment. I know that we'rerunning out of time. So with that, can you let us know where we can follow andlearn additional tips and tricks on leading the way. That is reallytransformational, as you mentioned sure the I think the best and easiest way todo. It is just pull me up through linked in because our websites andleading the change with John, like a Isyou, can connect through that whichis a site that the hospital runs for me,...

...but just connect with me through, liketen. That's like the easiest and most universal way to do it, and I wouldencourage you to do that because what I enjoy when people connect with methrough Latin, is they use the chat room and I don't get back to everybody,particularly if people are trying to sell something. They just don't havethe time to get back on that. But when people have real questions about thingsthey hear they read or they see I'm usually somebody who can respond back or somebody from my teamresponse back so cominetto linked in is probably the best and most easies wayfor most people to get into me. So that that's what I would that's. What Iwould do fantastic only will definitely make sure that all of your informationis posted for that, and then we can't be to her as a health ter podcast,without asking you who those warriors are out there, who are your health careheroes? Who would you like to give a hutch out out to you know I like a bigshout out to our nurses and our doctors and our respiratory therapist vironmentl services, workers and the list goes on and on those are my heroes,particularly through the pandemic. If you have an opportunity- and I'm suremost, if not all of you have already done this, get out there and tell yourteam how much you appreciate them, how much you support them? How much youlove them? Let them know that you see him and thatyou hear them that you're there for them. These men and women are on theabsolute front line to this pandemic. They are saving lives. They are thebeacon of light and hope for our communities. Through this entirepandemic. They are truly sacrificing for all of us. They are my heroes. Ican't think of a better way to end this, and I would also like to go ahead andcongratulate you again and officially referred you it Dr John ChorusCongratulation and it's so much for being a part of the hearers of healthcare podcast. We look forward to continuing to follow this journey withyou. Thank you and thanks for your time, Tho s e. This was great when you I'vegot to take care. You've been listening to heroes ofhealth care for more subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player,or visit us at heroes of health care, podcast com e.

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